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Eddie And Keela

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Eddie And Keela

Post  Admin on Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:40 pm

Taken from the previous Spotlight on Mark Harrison thread

spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by honestbroker on Mar 30, 2011, 9:55am

A while back, Tony made a wrong assumption, but for perfectly logical reasons: he assumed that, at the time Grime was selected for the PdL job, he was based in the UK.

The two reasons Tony ought to have been right are geography and cost. Even after handler's fees and other expenses, the cost of flying a handler and his dogs in to Portugal from outside Europe was always going to be much higher than from within Europe.

The way of justifying that extra cost would, of course, be that the product you are paying for is superior.

The person who sold the superiroity of enhanced victim recovery dogs (available, alone, in America) over mere victim recovery dogs (available anywhere in Europe, and in America) was, not Grime, but Harrison. More than that, Harrison was able to cite the rates for flying Grime and his team in from America, but didn't have costs available for flying in a team from Britain.

I find that quite amazing ...

Here is what Harrison said about costs:

Currently only costs for the EVRD and CSI are available.
The daily rate for this dog team is 1000 Euros. Flight travel costs for handler and dogs could be 2750 Euros. Veterinary costs: U.K. and Portugal to comply with Pet Passports scheme 450 Euros. Accommodation, subsistence and vehicle transportation would incur extra charge.
Costs for a VRD dog team to conduct the open area search are not available at the time of writing. Such a team could be sourced from several countries within Europe or USA that have this capability including the UK. However the UK is limited to those teams whose dogs have "pet passports" due to UK quarantine restrictions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by bonnybraes1 on Mar 30, 2011, 10:08am

So do I, HB. I had taken it for granted that they were UK-based. That is what they were hyped as.
What a shambles.
Am I right in thinking that US EVRDs are the real deal because they actually are trained on human cadavers, whereas UK dogs train on blood, dead piglets, etc? So they cannot be proper EVRDs because of their training

ETA - Flight travel costs for handler and dogs could be 2750 Euros

Say what? For two dogs and a person between the UK and Portugal?





Here is how Harrison sold it, Bonny:

VICTIM RECOVERY DOGS

Search Asset Profile

Victim recovery dogs (VRDs) are also known as body or cadaver dogs. They are used in many countries to assist the police in locating concealed human remains. In the UK, police dogs are used that are trained and licensed to a national standard.

Pig carcasses are used to train the dogs in the UK as it is not legal to use human cadavers. This is an established training method and enables the dogs to successfully detect human remains in operational case work.

Enhanced training to produce a EVRD.

The training of a VRD provides an alert response using Ivan Pavlov's theory of producing a conditioned reflex, in this case barking, to the presence of detected decomposing human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood. The dog will bark, whether or not it is able to get to the source of the scent. The benefit of this reflex is that the dog will respond whenever the target scent is present.
This enables the dog to be used in an investigative role, assisting experts in other fields, such as, geophysics.

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee.

The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced. In operational deployment and in training, the dog is successful in detecting human remains, body fluids and blood, to cellular levels that can be recovered by low copy
analysis at forensic laboratories.

The proven capability of the EVRD is to :

Search to locate very small samples of human remains, body fluids and blood in any environment or terrain.

Identify sub-surface depositions to a depth of approximately one metre below the surface of the ground, depending on the scent permeability of the ground.
This depth is increased substantially when the ground is 'vented' prior to deployment.
Page 2232

Locate and give an alert to cross contamination by a cadaver. This is particularly valuable when the dog is used to assist in searches where the discovery of a body has prompted the investigation. The dog may locate secondary deposition sites and any areas of contamination, e.g., items of vehicles used to transport the body.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by bonnybraes1 on Mar 30, 2011, 10:42am

You know, HB, a cursory read of that gives the impression that Eddie is of the same standard as the US dogs.
Which he cannot possibly be as he has trained used in so many different disciplines.

I am starting to feel like Sabot, but Eddie alerts to BLOOD as well.

http://www.u.tv/News/Attracta-Harron-ca ... 933a8f86e2

Constable John Ellis, said he realised the dog operated by his team-mate Martin Grime, a dog called "Eddie", a Springer Spaniel, had found something, because of his barking.

He added he continued searching with his dog "Frankie" a Border Collie, and that when he approached Constable Grime`s position, "there was a distinct smell of decay".

Constable Grime had told the court that as he searched the hedgerows and riverbank "Eddie" jumped into the stream and at one stage was being swept away by the current.

However, the dog managed to swim back up and jumped unto a pile of stones on the further bank and started barking.

"I immediately noted that he had found something and I made my way to the bank and saw what he had found," said Constable Grime.
The Sheffield based officer revealed this was the second time his team had allegedly uncovered evidence in the case after being called in by Strabane police to help in the search for the retired librarian.

He revealed that in February 2004, during a search of Hamilton`s mother`s burnt out car, "Eddie", allegedly uncovered traces of blood which the prosecution claim came from Mrs Harron.

Blood samples recovered from a mat in the red Hyundai Lantra car when tested for DNA, showed there was a billion to one chance it had not come from the pensioner.

Constable Ellis also claimed that his dog, "Frankie" also uncovered something in the rear of the car.

He said that unlike "Eddie", for some reason his dog did
not stay in the back of the car, but jumped from the vehicle and "alerted me with the dog looking back into the car".
---------------------------
Note that the non-famous dog also reacted to the blood in the car, and the corpse smelled so bad the humans could smell it.

The non-famous dog seems to have behaved itself, however.


Last edited by Admin on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Bungled Jersey child abuse probe branded a '£20million shambles'

Post  Maggs on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:03 pm

An old article by Vee on J4
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html

The bungled inquiry into allegations of child abuse and murder at a Jersey care home will cost taxpayers on the island at least £20million, a Mail on Sunday investigation reveals today.

The bungled inquiry into allegations of child abuse and murder at a Jersey care home will cost taxpayers on the island at least £20million, a Mail on Sunday investigation reveals today.

Lenny Harper, the controversial detective who initially headed Operation Rectangle, also spent thousands of pounds of public money staying in four-star hotels and eating in some of London’s top restaurants.

His handling of the Haut de la Garenne children’s home probe has been described as
a ‘shambles’ by Mick Gradwell, the detective drafted in to replace Harper.

The evidence of lavish expenses claims and extraordinary financial waste includes paying £93,000 to Martin Grime, the handler of the sniffer dog Eddie, who was charged with the grim task of finding children’s bodies that were supposedly entombed in concrete in the institution, known as ‘the Jersey House of Horrors’, which closed in 1986.

To date the ‘human remains’ that triggered the storm surrounding the case have turned out to be a piece of coconut shell.

A leaked report by financial auditors into the investigation shows Grime received £750 a day for the first seven days’ work his dog did and £650 a day for 136 days thereafter.

But it has come to light that he did not have a UK licence for the job. Grime said this
did not matter as Jersey is not in the UK.

Meanwhile, colleagues of Harper have told how he clocked up a huge expenses bill by flying to London regularly to hold meetings with Scotland Yard officers.

In total, Harper and his colleague PC Andrew Linsell, a Jersey traffic officer whom Harper appointed as his personal chauffeur, made 49 claims between January and August 2008 on their force credit cards for meals costing more than £50.

More than £5,700 was on Harper’s card alone.

Only one member of staff who worked at Haut de la Garenne has been convicted as part of the investigation so far. Gordon Wateridge, 78, was found guilty of eight indecent assaults on teenage girls and jailed for two years in August.

Eddie the sniffer dog - the animal that had supposedly found the 'scent of death' in the Portuguese flat where Madeleine McCann disappeared - no longer had a licence for UK police forensic work when Harper started using him in Jersey. Eddie, whose owner, Martin Grime, was paid £93,600 for less than five months' work, triggered the first excavations by barking at a spot where Harper's team then unearthed what was claimed to be part of a child's skull. In fact, as a Kew Gardens expert has now confirmed, it was a piece of coconut shell.

As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.
'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.
The bungled inquiry into allegations of child abuse and murder at a Jersey care home will cost taxpayers on the island at least £20million, a Mail on Sunday investigation reveals today.

Lenny Harper, the controversial detective who initially headed Operation Rectangle, also spent thousands of pounds of public money staying in four-star hotels and eating in some of London’s top restaurants.

His handling of the Haut de la Garenne children’s home probe has been described as
a ‘shambles’ by Mick Gradwell, the detective drafted in to replace Harper.

The evidence of lavish expenses claims and extraordinary financial waste includes paying £93,000 to Martin Grime, the handler of the sniffer dog Eddie, who was charged with the grim task of finding children’s bodies that were supposedly entombed in concrete in the institution, known as ‘the Jersey House of Horrors’, which closed in 1986.

To date the ‘human remains’ that triggered the storm surrounding the case have turned out to be a piece of coconut shell.

A leaked report by financial auditors into the investigation shows Grime received £750 a day for the first seven days’ work his dog did and £650 a day for 136 days thereafter.

But it has come to light that he did not have a UK licence for the job. Grime said this
did not matter as Jersey is not in the UK.

Meanwhile, colleagues of Harper have told how he clocked up a huge expenses bill by flying to London regularly to hold meetings with Scotland Yard officers.

In total, Harper and his colleague PC Andrew Linsell, a Jersey traffic officer whom Harper appointed as his personal chauffeur, made 49 claims between January and August 2008 on their force credit cards for meals costing more than £50.

More than £5,700 was on Harper’s card alone.

Only one member of staff who worked at Haut de la Garenne has been convicted as part of the investigation so far. Gordon Wateridge, 78, was found guilty of eight indecent assaults on teenage girls and jailed for two years in August.

Eddie the sniffer dog - the animal that had supposedly found the 'scent of death' in the Portuguese flat where Madeleine McCann disappeared - no longer had a licence for UK police forensic work when Harper started using him in Jersey. Eddie, whose owner, Martin Grime, was paid £93,600 for less than five months' work, triggered the first excavations by barking at a spot where Harper's team then unearthed what was claimed to be part of a child's skull. In fact, as a Kew Gardens expert has now confirmed, it was a piece of coconut shell.

As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.
'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.

False trails: Eddie the sniffer dog with handler Martin Grime

'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'

The team's interim report, seen by this newspaper, reveals that Grime was paid £750 a day for the first seven days he spent on the island and £650 a day for the following 136 days.
Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog'.
Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.
ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'
Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.' He said his fees were 'all agreed' and that he had given Jersey a 'discount'.
Asked about the 'human remains' found by Eddie that turned out to be coconut, Grime said bizarrely: 'People aren't right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be human.'
The auditors' interim report concludes: 'It was an expensive mistake to bring in Mr Grime. It would have been far preferable and much cheaper to have tried to obtain appropriately trained dogs and handlers from UK police forces.'
Harper, it adds, did not consider this option. For much of the time Grime spent on Jersey, the report reveals, he was not even working with his dogs, but as an assistant to the Haut de la Garenne crime scene manager - duties for which he had no qualifications, and which did 'not justify the payment to him of £650 a day'.

Once Eddie started sniffing, any notion of a strategy disappeared. Karl Harrison, one of the scientists Harper brought in from a UK company, LGC Forensics, summed up the inquiry's approach in a comment to the financial investigators.
He said: 'We followed the dog. Where the dog barked was dug up.' This, says the interim report, was 'a fundamental error'.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Sabot on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:38 pm


Jeez, it even looks like coconut shell. I obviously missed a career move here.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  lily on Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:43 pm

Karl Harrison, one of the scientists Harper brought in from a UK company, LGC Forensics, summed up the inquiry's approach in a comment to the financial investigators.
He said: 'We followed the dog. Where the dog barked was dug up.' This, says the interim report, was 'a fundamental error'.
--------

It also nicely ties in Grime to Mark Harrison's company LGC. I imagine Kevin Harrison might be a relative?
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:47 pm

Probably just a coincidence, Lily - he doesn't seem enamoured of the woofs.

This bit may be very important to a lot of things:

As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.
'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.


What was Grime playing at, using a video of an ongoing investigation to tout for work in another case?
He wouldn't have got the job if it had been known that Eddie found naff-all except bits of a very much alive Gerry, would he?
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  lily on Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:55 pm

So that would be the part of the video when Grime stated to the effect that the smell was coming through the door seal. That it was not necessary to put Eddie in the car.

Of course this was on our old forum, but I know Tony asked what Grime said. I posted it verbatim for him.

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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:21 pm

Our friends have rescued an awful lot of the old site, Lily, and I am going through everything trying to sort the chaff from the wheat - the info from the informal remarks between it.

I had forgotten all about this link:

http://blog.old-and-bold.com/wordpress/?p=3400

Sniffer Dogs ‘Can Hinder Police Work’

It's well worth a reread.

Here we are:

Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by lily on Mar 30, 2011, 4:51pm

I agree with your assessment, Bonny. There is reference to the Portugal deployment as being from a private company. So I think that would be correct?

This now would make more sense of that dog video and what Grime said at the end about the door seal and not putting the dog inside? A video to be used to market his wares?


Here we are!

Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by lily on Mar 30, 2011, 5:14pm

What an opportunity for a new business, Bonny. Of course the obvious way to market your wares is to have a video of the dogs in action in order to drum up further business. The video we have seen smacks of just that.

ETA: Grime didn't put the dog inside the car at that point, why not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by crazytony on Mar 30, 2011, 5:14pm

What bothers me, the dog appeared to miss the scent three times. Three times that dog went round the vehicle. Not a sound from it. Then all of a sudden, Bulls eye.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by lily on Mar 30, 2011, 5:18pm

Exactly, Tony. Why did the dog keep running away as though it wasn't interested?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by bonnybraes1 on Mar 30, 2011, 5:18pm

I am trying not to be ghoulish....but if there had been a weeks-old, defrosting corpse in that car at any point, there would have been no need for sniffer dogs.
And Eddie certainly would not have needed to go around it three times, he would have been trying to climb in the boot.
Not barking at the front left door.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by lily on Mar 30, 2011, 5:20pm

Nail on the head, Bonny. It can't be stated much clearer than that.

Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by crazytony on Mar 30, 2011, 5:23pm

Grimes says, the reason the dog was running around with its head in the air; is it is trying to locate the scent.
Okay, if the scent was strong enough for the dog to smell it in the air, why the hell when it was a hair breadth from the scent, it couldn't detect it?

=========



Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by lily on Mar 30, 2011, 5:42pm

I am bringing over a post I made in response to Tony on another thread to clarify for him what Grime said on the video when the dog was at the car door.

Yes Tony, he says that the important thing to remember is that he is picking up the scent that is coming out through the seal of the door. So using that information he doesn't intend to put the dog in the car.


I guess he also has a bridge to sell.

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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  lily on Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:47 pm

Thanks Bonny. So, he was lining his ducks in a row for his proposed new and lucrative business.

So, that part of the video which was released by Levy (?) onto forums was part of his future sales pitch except, of course, there was no corroborating evidence.

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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:14 pm

Don't forget, Lily, Levy also sold it to the Sun.
No-one actually knows what the dog videos proper look like.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  lily on Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:39 pm

I did forget that, Bonny. If that is the video on file in this case, it is going to reflect very badly on Grime. I imagine SY will be looking at it?
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:48 pm

I am sure they know, off the record, that the supposedly-damning dog alerts are actually pretty meaningless, Lily?
No doubt the full videos will be made available to them - the ones no-one has seen - well, apart from Levy, when he was editing them to suit his own agenda.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  lily on Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:55 pm

SY will also know that Eddie didn't exactly have much success in Jersey, won't they?

Since they are proper policemen, they will also understand the forensic results. I think that Rebelo understood the whole case, actually.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:55 pm

Re: spotlight on Mark Harrison
Post by lily on Mar 30, 2011, 5:42pm

I am bringing over a post I made in response to Tony on another thread to clarify for him what Grime said on the video when the dog was at the car door.

Yes Tony, he says that the important thing to remember is that he is picking up the scent that is coming out through the seal of the door. So using that information he doesn't intend to put the dog in the car.

That's caught my eyes. According to what's in the files, the reports, Eddie wasn't deployed into the car.
BUTTTTTT, there's this:

`It is important to know that the dog chooses the odour that comes from the lower part of the door. Based on this information, I will try to place the dog inside the car.`

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm#mg2466

Odd that. Or may be the PJ made a mistake when they wrote that down?




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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:08 pm

I hadn't seen that before, Cath. So, what happened then? Don't tell me...

Apparently without verbal report.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  lily on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:33 pm

bb1 wrote:I hadn't seen that before, Cath. So, what happened then? Don't tell me...

Apparently without verbal report.

Looks like what you think it is....... again. Pcorneater
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Eddie And Keela

Post  Chicane on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:56 am

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Sniffer-Dogs-Report-Says-No-Approved-Standards-For-Police-Dogs-Which-Are-Complicating-Some-Probes/Article/201103415959107


Snifferdogs can hinder police work


Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.



Sniffer dog Eddie was relieved of his police duties


The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA), http://www.npia.police.uk/ said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

"There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

"Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.



The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time.

The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.

The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.

A South Yorkshire Police, http://www.southyorks.police.uk/ spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.

But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.

Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews, http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Shannon-Matthews-Serious-Case-Review-Into-9-Year-Old-Schoolgirls-Abduction-To-Be-Published/Article/201006315649832 in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

The Association of Chief Police Officers, http://www.acpo.police.uk/ told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.




Out of work..........woof
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Pedro Silva on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:10 am

eddie and keela: no credibility.

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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Guest on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:35 am

I say the trainer lacks credibility. The dogs are not infallible like their trainer wants us to believe. I would have loved to ask him more challenging and open questions during that Rogatory interview. These questions were too easy, closed, providing him a "get out of jail" option.

Which reminds me, the Rogatory interviews weren't on the DVD, they were published by Levy/Reis I think? Was it ever established that they are genuine, not edited like the videos were?


Last edited by Cath on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:36 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : It's difficult for me to read black on this blue. Sorry...)

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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:16 am

I am happy to be corrected, but I don't it was ever established that they were genuine, Cath.
I would say Eddie and Keela do a perfectly adequate job, but.....Eddie in particular is exciteable and it's a matter of record that he over reacts. Combined with the way his abilities were hyped up, it's a recipe for disaster.
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Chicane on Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:25 pm

Cath wrote:I say the trainer lacks credibility. The dogs are not infallible like their trainer wants us to believe. I would have loved to ask him more challenging and open questions during that Rogatory interview. These questions were too easy, closed, providing him a "get out of jail" option.

Which reminds me, the Rogatory interviews weren't on the DVD, they were published by Levy/Reis I think? Was it ever established that they are genuine, not edited like the videos were?



http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

03-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 21 to 25

TRANSLATIONS BY CAMERINA32

Translation
DVD Rogatory Letters 3rd volume
Martin Grime




On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature. The Judicial Police is in possession of the originals of the search reports and the videos showing all searches performed and the reaction of the dogs. In addition to the report, Sam Harkeness of the Progresso National Police Agency sent me by email several written questions sent by the Judicial Police together with a request for a written deposition. This deposition was submitted without me having seen or having knowledge of the final report from the forensic agency responsible for analyzing the evidence submitted in this case.

Bonny, I forgot to add Cath's quote. This is in the PJ files, but not what a strange rogatory interview with such a keyfigure as Martin Grime. Oh well...this is after all the strangest case we ever came across.


Last edited by Chicane on Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:13 pm

Is that what seems to be missing, Chicane?
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  bb1 on Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:59 pm

This is worth a read; it concerns the role of the dogs in the ongoing Anthony case in the States:

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/08/second-dog-alerted-to-decomposition-in-anthony%E2%80%99s-yard/

One of the dog handlers is testifying here: Quote:


On cross examination, Brewer stated that dogs can alert on bodily fluids from a living person that are now decomposing. Defense attorney Jose Baez gave the example of blood or a fingernail from a live person, and Brewer agreed that it is possible a dog would pick up on that.
Brewer stated that they train the dogs on cars with known histories because it is possible that an unknown older car could have been contaminated, possibly by being in an accident or somebody having bled inside. As a result, Baez asked if the dog was more of a tool than a conclusive indicator of the presence of decomposition. Brewer said that was true because the dogs are “trained to find the strongest source, whatever it might be.”


And is not that just what some have been trying to get into the haters' thick heads for some time now?
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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Chicane on Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:50 pm

bb1 wrote:This is worth a read; it concerns the role of the dogs in the ongoing Anthony case in the States:

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2011/06/08/second-dog-alerted-to-decomposition-in-anthony%E2%80%99s-yard/

One of the dog handlers is testifying here: Quote:


On cross examination, Brewer stated that dogs can alert on bodily fluids from a living person that are now decomposing. Defense attorney Jose Baez gave the example of blood or a fingernail from a live person, and Brewer agreed that it is possible a dog would pick up on that.
Brewer stated that they train the dogs on cars with known histories because it is possible that an unknown older car could have been contaminated, possibly by being in an accident or somebody having bled inside. As a result, Baez asked if the dog was more of a tool than a conclusive indicator of the presence of decomposition. Brewer said that was true because the dogs are “trained to find the strongest source, whatever it might be.”


And is not that just what some have been trying to get into the haters' thick heads for some time now?

Exactly!
Human decomposition sets in immediately at the onset of death because the supply of energy, the fuel is suddenly cut off: the body does not function anymore.
A broken nail dropped on the ground or body fluids leaving the body of a living person, are also cut of the same fuel, so human decomposition sets in, which is logical, after all it's 'dead stuff'. The Dutch version of Martin Grime here in Holland assured me over the phone that the process of human decomposition is immediately launched and snifferdogss detect it within one minute!!
That is cadaverscent.

Where the story comes from that it takes at least 90 minutes to develop this fragrance, we can't track down anymore. Forum myth??

Eddie is trained to detect blood and cadaverscent. The deployment of bloodhound Keela is necessary to verify Eddie: he smells blood or is it cadaverscent?
Air is not tangible, you can not see or grasp it. In 2007, Grime had no means to determine cadaverscent. FSS lab in Birmingham only works with blood samples.


Dr. Arpad Vass.

In the USA, Dr. Arpad Vass, a senior forensics expert at Oakridge National Laboratory, better known as "The Body Farm", has developed a way to capture cadaverscent.
The results of his experimental findings are now being raised as evidence in Casey Anthony case.


http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2011/06/06/casey-anthony-trial-begins-3rd-week-with-the-body-farm-expert/

Casey Anthony trial begins 3rd week with “The Body Farm” expert


Students excavate a site on""The Body Farm in Tennessee, one of the most unique research sites in the world.

In probably the most gruesome testimony yet in the trial for Casey Anthony, Dr. Arpad Vass, a senior forensics expert at Oakridge National Laboratory, testified for the prosecution today.

Among other degrees in various scientific disciplines, Dr. Vass holds a masters degree in forensic science and earned his Ph.D. in forensic anthropology.

Dr. Vass wrote his dissertation and thesis work on the study of anthropology as it relates to forensics and methods to determine how long a body has been deceased, or what he termed, post-mortem interval.

Vass worked at “The Body Farm” for 20 years.

From The Body Farm Website:

On the campus of the University of Tennessee lies a patch of ground unlike any in the world. The “Body Farm” is a place where human corpses are left to the elements, and every manner of decay is fully explored—for the sake of science and the cause of justice.

Affectionately referred to as the Body Farm, the facility was founded in 1981 by Dr. Bill Bass, a professor of anthropology at the university. Before the Body Farm was established, information on human decay was astonishingly inadequate, leaving criminal investigators poorly equipped for determining abandoned bodies’ time of death.

This anthropological Research Facility is the only place in the world you can study decompositional effects on the human body in various conditions. People donate their bodies to be researched. The bodies are left outside to decompose under various conditions including in the trunks of cars.

After discussing his credentials, research and knowledge of decomposition, Dr. Vass told the jury that he was contacted by lead investigator, Yuri Melich in regards to the Casey Anthony case.

The prosecution then presented into evidence a box that was presumed to contained air samples and trunk liner samples from the trunk of Casey Anthony’s Sunfire. These pieces of evidence were provided to Dr. Vass for analysis.

Prosecutor Jeff Ashton continued direct examination of Dr. Vass.

Vass testified that he worked with odors emitted from the body to help develop instruments to detect these odors, as well as in training cadaver dogs.

He further told the courtroom that odor of human decomposition is much different to animal decomposition.

In side bar after side bar, Attorney Jose Baez objected to Dr. Vass’ testimony.

Judge Belvin Perry ruled against Baez and allowed the testimony.

Dr. Vass was asked about the air samples that he and another Doctor analyzed.

Amid numerous objections from defense, Dr. Vass proceeded with his testimony.

He stated that the levels of chloroform in the can holding the carpet samples taken from the trunk were “shockingly” high.

He further said, he removed the carpet sample from the can and placed it inside a Tetlar bag. They incubated it for two days in order to get better results.

The air in the bag was then analyzed. Further chemical’s were discovered.

They were able to identify 51 chemicals, one of which being chloroform which was in a very high concentration.

Dr. Vass said he has never seen that high a level of chloroform in any sample ever sent to him for analysis. Chloroform can be a byproduct of decomposition.

A control was also run in conjunction with the crime sample using carpet samples from two different cars to verify the results. The results on the control samples were low, typical of what would be normally be found in the environment.

A procedure called LIBS was also used to test the carpet sample. The test involves the use of a laser on the sample.

LIBS also confirmed the presence of chloroform in high levels, as well as other inorganic chemicals associated with human decomposition.

Attorney Baez objected continuously and was overruled repeatedly by Judge Perry.

Further analysis of fibers of the carpet from the Sunfire trunk with a gas chromatograph, indicated the presence of butyric acid. Butyric acid is the first compound that is liberated from the body in human decomposition.

Vass was then asked what happened when he originally broke the seal and opened the can with the sample prior to testing. Dr. Vass stated “I had to jump back a foot or two when I opened the can with the sample inside of it.” He said that he recognized the odor immediately as that of human decomposition.


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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Guest on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:30 am

I've not really been following the Anthony case that much - but I did happen to watch CNN and heard the actual call to the police made by the Grandmother. She said that SHE smelt that there had been a body in that car - so if the smell was that obvious, why did they even need to bring in the dogs?

The antis keep referring to this case as proof of how trustworthy dogs are - and in this case, well, they seem to have displayed sniffing abilities equal to those of a grandmother. That's not really hugely impressive IMO.

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Re: Eddie And Keela

Post  Chicane on Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:00 pm

Seems you have a point there thumbsup

YouTube : Cindy Anthony 911 calls

All 3 911 calls made by Cindy Anthony on July 15, 2008 against her daughter Casey Anthony. There's been a lot of talk about these calls lately, so I wanted to put them together in one file for everyone to hear what happened and how it progressed. Take a listen.


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Re: Eddie And Keela

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