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Re-interment of King Richard III

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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:24 pm

Outrageous!  It seems to have been guided by His Grace himself.....
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:25 pm

Lamplighter wrote:
lily wrote:Thanks LL.   hughug
Another Pm for you.   LL
And a final try, another pm for you lily. LL
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:26 pm

Thanks so much LL for your kindness.  Much appreciated, as always.  hug
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:26 pm

It's so rare for clothing to survive anyway, Lily, let alone Catholic vestments through the Reformation. Astounding.
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:31 pm

bb1 wrote:It's so rare for clothing to survive anyway, Lily, let alone Catholic vestments through the Reformation. Astounding.
Probably, like the Croyland Chronicle, it was well hidden. LL
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:42 pm

King Richard III was coffined at the University of Leicester in a former chapel on Sunday 15 March 2015 at 12 noon.

There were twenty official witnesses to the event, including three clerics from the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church. A list of those present was signed by each individual; a copy will be presented to the Richard III Society on 22 March and will be published on our website.

A welcome address from the Pro-Vice Chancellor of the University of Leicester, Professor Kevin Schürer, included a statement confirming that the University had completed its scientific research and analysis of the bones; there was also an assurance that King Richard's remains would not be disinterred in the future. He also stated that all the samples taken from the King's remains for scientific testing had been collected and would be placed in the coffin. The materials used in the coffin were sourced from across the United Kingdom, and were all naturally-based to avoid the danger of any contamination of the remains.

The coffin is English oak with a lead lining and the base is covered with a piece of unbleached linen. It was made by Michael Ibsen, a carpenter and collateral descendant of King Richard, whose DNA was used in the identification of the King's remains.

Beforehand King Richard's bones had been laid out anatomically on a table covered with a murray coloured cloth. They were also placed in the coffin anatomically, with wool fleece placed around the bones to hold them in position. The smaller ones were picked up individually and placed in eight unbleached linen bags made by children from Leicester's King Richard III Infants School.

The scientific samples taken from the bones, stored in glass tubes and sealed with cork were then placed into the ninth bag. When all the bones had been transferred to the coffin sheets of thick wool wadding were paced over the bones and fleece. A rosary was put into the final bag and this was placed in the coffin. The rosary, donated by Dr John Ashdown-Hill, had been blessed a few weeks earlier at Clare Priory in Suffolk.

Further sheets of wadding were added and finally another piece of embroidered unbleached linen was placed over the wadding and this was carefully tucked down. The lead lid cover was then soldered into place and coffin's lid laid and fixed.

The coffining was held in silence, with reverence and due dignity providing those present the opportunity to offer their thoughts and prayers privately in silence.

University of Leicester announcement.
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:44 pm

Isn't that wonderful?  Loving all this, so many thanks to you in particular, LL, and also Bonny for posting fascinating articles and sites up.
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:07 pm

I see C4 has a discussion at 9 tonight about Richard III and the Princes in the Tower. Now, normally I'd watch it, but unfortunately, one of the guests is David Starkey.

Should I avoid it, because he annoys me so much? Or watch it, because the other guest is Ms Langley, and she may be able to make him stutter and go red in the face?
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:25 pm

bb1 wrote:I see C4 has a discussion at 9 tonight about Richard III and the Princes in the Tower. Now, normally I'd watch it, but unfortunately, one of the guests is David Starkey.

Should I avoid it, because he annoys me so much? Or watch it, because the other guest is Ms Langley, and she may be able to make him stutter and go red in the face?
Starkey is a self-opinionated crass bore.   This is, I see, the Princes in the Tower so Starkey will be screeching about it because of the accusation that his beloved H7 might be the murderer.   And it's with Phillipa Gregory not Ms Langley according to my online TV programmer.  LL
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:33 pm

He's putting me off watching it, LL. I've seen him too often on the subject of his beloved Tudors. I find him outdated, imperialist, and generally....predictable. His whole style of 'history' seems old-fashioned and bigoted, as is his research and methodology.
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:37 pm

bb1 wrote:He's putting me off watching it, LL. I've seen him too often on the subject of his beloved Tudors. I find him outdated, imperialist, and generally....predictable. His whole style of 'history' seems old-fashioned and bigoted, as is his research and methodology.
Personally, I would give it a miss.   The program tomorrow and the rest of them during the coming week are far more interesting than watching a stupid prat ranting and raving.   At 22.00 MORE4 is showing the King in the Carpark which is the one with Ms Langley.   LL
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:45 pm

Yes, you're right, LL, I'll just end up shouting at the TV. biggrin

I've plenty of decent stuff recorded, including the King in the Car Park, should I need to refresh my memory. I've even still got The White Queen, which despite being the most terrible piece of hokum, was at least positive, and bizarrely appropriate in its timing.
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:30 pm

The best explanation for the whole princes mystery I ever saw was in an old Dr Who comic....

For reasons I forget now, the Doctor was in the Tower, in 1484, having a chat with Richard about physics, space, time, that sort of thing - Richard was at least depicted as intelligent, if still somewhat sinister.

The Doctor explained that no, he couldn't change history, the princes could never be seen again. Which could have been curtains for the boys, except that the Doctor doesn't go around doing in spare princes...

But he can go anywhere in space and time....and what young boy doesn't like travel and adventure...... Cool
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:37 pm

Brilliant!  smile
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:51 pm

Well, there are as many theories re the princes as there are re Madeleine. Rlll, H7, Buckingham - he was a Plantaganet and related to both R and H. The older boy died young as he was sickly, the younger boy was Lambert Simnel or Perkin Warbeck, he was sent by R to Burgundy where R's sister was Duchess. My choice would be Buckingham who had motive and opportunity. LL
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:53 pm

I think so too, LL. smile
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:59 pm

IMO, the lightbulb moment comes when you think, Hold on, who said they were even murdered in the first place?

My own personal opinion is that the key is Elizabeth Woodville's actions.
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:11 pm

Some good pics of Market Bosworth on the Mercury site:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/pictures/Picture-Gallery-Market-Bosworth-prepares-Richard/pictures-26208247-detail/pictures.html#1

I've just seen that C4 is advertising it as R III P 1452 - 1485 - 2015.
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:21 pm

Some of those are wonderful photos.  

Why do you think Elizabeth Woodville, Bonny?
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:28 pm

Because if Richard had harmed her boys, she would NOT have handed her daughter over to his care. And it would have been in her interests, once H7 was on the throne, to accuse Richard of harming the boys, whether he had or not.

Instead, she said nothing, and ended up getting sent to a nunnery by H7. All of which suggests that not only did Richard not harm the boys, at least one was still alive.

And I have just dipped into the C4 programme for a few minutes. It wasn't bad, key episodes being recreated with various people explaining what was happened.

Then we came to the meeting at Stony Stratford. And Starkey appeared. And announced that what probably happened was that Richard got Buckingham drunk - maybe even slipped him a mickey - while staying sober himself.

At which point I switched off, I am afraid. I really cannot watch Starkey.
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:34 pm

Ah, I understand where you are coming from now Bonny.  Apologies.  

Yes, I also think she sent one of her boys to safety.  It must have sent Henry VII bonkers thinking he was still out there.....
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Post  Lamplighter Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:46 pm

bb1 wrote:IMO, the lightbulb moment comes when you think, Hold on, who said they were even murdered in the first place?

My own personal opinion is that the key is Elizabeth Woodville's actions.
Ah, yes, E had no choice re the boys as Parliament ruled that the lord protector, ie R, had rhe right to'protect' the boy king. However, if they had been killed by R, why did she make it up with R and let her eldestg daughter join his court? Did he give her proof they were still alive, at least, if the older boy had died, the younger one was safe? Must have been some reason why H7 locked her up in a nunnery for 'being nice' to R. LL
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:16 pm

Oh my! Ignore the lurid bits....

Re-interment of King Richard III - Page 2 CAp2UbVVEAANEJd
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Post  lily Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:20 pm

Fantastic!  smile

At least many people really do believe that he was NOT evil.
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Post  bb1 Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:27 pm

IMO, that take on it very much belongs to an older generation now, Lily. Somehow or other, he's become a bit of a superstar with younger people. And if HM is indeed giving him her blessing, that's his reputation pretty much restored.

After all, if anyone knows what really happened to the boys, it's the Royals.
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