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COLD WAR - US planned to drop bombs close to Austria

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Post  Lamplighter Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:44 am

Recently-declassified nuclear targeting documents from 1959 describe how Washington planned to destroy cities in Eastern and Central Europe, including Prague, Budapest, Bratislava, and a former Soviet air base on the border with Austria.

The documents, part of a report titled “SAC (Strategic Air Command) Atomic Weapons Requirements Study for 1959”, cast doubt on Washington’s Cold War commitment to protect what it referred to as the Soviet bloc’s “captive nations” in Europe.

Budapest would have been completely destroyed if, as planned, the US hit the Tokol military airfield on the banks of the Danube River with one of its nuclear weapons. The blast would have made the Danube radioactive and anyone exposed to its waters would have suffered an agonizing death from radiation sickness.

Hegyeshalom, on the border between Austria, Slovakia and Hungary, would have been obliterated under the plan as it was the location for a Soviet military airbase. A nuclear bomb dropped here would have wiped out the communities of Neusiedl, Parndorf, Frauenkirchen, and Gols.

In total, 77 nuclear bombs were trained on a number of targets close to neutral Austria’s borders - which if detonated would have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of Austrians.

The US Air Force study called for the “systematic destruction” of major cities such as Warsaw, East Berlin, Prague, Bucharest, Tallinn, as well as cities in Russia and North Korea.

The plan would have enabled US Forces to destroy the Soviet Union and its allies in the shortest possible time, in the event of an East-West conflict.
http://www.thelocal.at/20151231/us-wanted-to-destroy-soviet-bloc-cities
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Post  bb1 Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:47 am

Budapest would have been completely destroyed if, as planned, the US hit the Tokol military airfield on the banks of the Danube River with one of its nuclear weapons. The blast would have made the Danube radioactive and anyone exposed to its waters would have suffered an agonizing death from radiation sickness.

Yeah, but they'd have been saved from those dirty commies.....

No doubt the Soviets were prepared to do exactly the same to Western Europe and the US, but history has proven that there was a huge flaw in Pentagon thinking.

Being Red was temporary, being dead isn't, and the Pope did have more divisions than Stalin.

I do find it terrifying that there are still lunatics like McCain on the loose that imagine the US could 'win' a war with Russia.
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Post  bb1 Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:49 am


The plan would have enabled US Forces to destroy the Soviet Union and its allies in the shortest possible time, in the event of an East-West conflict.

I think they forgot about the bit where the Soviets would be shooting back - a mistake the US military have frequently made in recent years.
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Post  lily Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:50 pm

OMG.  What sheer stupidity is that?  Eek Eek Eek

A big problem that I see for Americans is that the closest they have come in recent years to  being attacked was Pearl Harbor and 9/11.  I heard the other day, I kept my cool very well, was how the Brits were saved from the Germans in WWII.   I had not heard that for a long time.  I did not care to argue the point......it would have made no difference.

On the other hand, I do know they have the means to obliterate if they chose to but they do tend to not think about the other side......
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Post  bb1 Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:04 pm

No, we weren't 'saved' from the Germans - we saved ourselves. Eventually, the Red Army would have ground the Nazis into dust - something like 80% of German troops were actually on the Eastern front on D-Day getting ground under.

We couldn't have stopped the Japanese, for sure, but no-one saved us except ourselves, mainly thanks to the RAF.

Both 9/11 and Pearl Harbour were terrible - but there were only some 6,000 killed in total - a tragedy for each and every family, certainly, but nothing beside the tens of millions of Europeans and Russians that were killed in WW2.

32,000 Britons died in the Blitz alone, with nearly 100,000 injured.

I was idly watching something about the US invasion of Grenada the other day; one of the excuses for it was that 'Russia' could use it as a launch pad to invade the US. Not one person stopped to ask, Why on earth would they want to?

Unless the US manages to p*ss off both Canada and Mexico so much that they invade from both directions, it's just about the only country on earth that's safe from invasion by sheer geography.
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Post  bb1 Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:06 pm

I thought this bit was good, too:


The US Air Force study called for the “systematic destruction” of major cities such as Warsaw, East Berlin, Prague, Bucharest, Tallinn, as well as cities in Russia and North Korea
.

So, no danger of the wind blowing from the East, then, and dumping all the fallout on whatever was left of Europe and the US?

I bet this was Curtis le May's idea....
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Post  lily Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:44 pm

OMG, you are most probably correct there, Bonny. He was tied in with George Wallace politically so that says enough.

I have learned to bite my tongue about the 'we saved you' routine, when circumstances demand it. The look on my face says more anyway......
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Post  Lamplighter Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:35 pm

I have learned to bite my tongue about the 'we saved you' routine, when circumstances demand it. The look on my face says more anyway......
It is a well known fact that the USA were isolationist as Europe went up in flames and that the only reason they joined in WW2 was the attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 December - they declared war on Japan on 8 December; when Germany and Italy declared war on the USA 11 December the decision was reciprocated. The UK had been fighting almost alone from 1 September 1939. This belief that the USA 'won the war' is as stupid as the assertion that no Jews died in the camps. LL
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Post  lily Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:48 pm

Absolutely agree, LL. I get breathless at the idiocy of the statements. There again, many Americans do not know much, if at all, about European history.
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Post  Sabot Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:59 pm

I thought Audi Murphy won the war. Or is that a bit before your time?
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Post  Lamplighter Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:00 pm

lily wrote:Absolutely agree, LL.  I get breathless at the idiocy of the statements.  There again, many Americans do not know much, if at all, about European history.  
I wonder, lily, how many Americans know much about their own history? Do they ignore that Joseph P. Kennedy, father of President Kennedy, was a prominent pro-Nazi sympathizer. Or the sending back to Germany of the St Louis, a liner with 908 Jews desperate to escape the Nazis; on their return to Germany about 1/3rd of them died in the camps. LL
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Post  bb1 Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:19 pm

IMO, what causes the bad feeling is that Europeans DO tend to know history; whatever else happened, after September 1940, Britain was NOT going to be invaded. Most also know that it was FDR that gave Stalin free rein to keep those parts of eastern Europe his troops had 'liberated'.

I don't think anyone but the US could have won in the Pacific; the Soviets chased the Japanese out of Manchuria, but Britain couldn't have defeated them, there wasn't the manpower and the country was just too battered. But as far as Germany goes, Britain saved itself.
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Post  lily Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:36 pm

Yes it did.

There is one seriously decorated gentleman I had a lovely conversation with. He had a room that contained his medals and photos of planes on the wall. I asked him about it all. Mainly it was about the raids on Schweinfurt-Regensburg which he had excelled himself in as the US Air commander.

So, I thanked him for helping Britain. He said he had been waiting for so long for someone to acknowledge that. He started sobbing and told me that the last time he was in London he was treated so badly by an English woman at a reunion dinner. I said not to worry about that very rude lady and hugged him.

He was truly one of the good guys. So humble. I think that those who have done so much to help are like that.
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Post  bb1 Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:48 pm

Oh, poor man - that is inexcusable! I would have thought that anyone - male or female - at a reunion dinner would have known about those missions, and the terrible losses of the USAAF.
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Post  lily Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:11 pm

Apparently not that woman. I'm sure we all know the kind, no manners whatsoever.
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Post  bb1 Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:25 pm

It's actually almost two different issues, isn't it? Britain was NOT going to be invaded, even if we spent the next century living on turnips and oats by candlelight.

But that didn't do anything about Hitler and the rest of Europe, and for a long time, the RAF, and then the USAAF, were the only means of striking back, disrupting German war industry, troops transports, etc, as with the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission, the Dam Busters, etc.

Some of the less-demented Nazi high-ups that survived, like Speer, had interesting things to say on this subject, and the damage these raids caused the German war machine. From his viewpoint (and he was well placed to comment) these raids DID cause havoc.

None of which makes carpet-bombing eastern Europe with nuclear warheads a good idea....
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Post  lily Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:44 pm

In reality yes, Bonny. Poor Britain was struggling with all those air raids for such a long time. Talk about brave. Those guys were true heroes. They desperately needed a break and the Americans did take the day raids when they first started. Listening to the personal stories of the airmen are both mind-blowing and humbling in equal measure.

Britain had incredible planes and pilots. So did America. They made a wonderful team in reality......I do know that other pilots like from Poland, New Zealand, Canada etc joined in too. It's enthralling to think about it all.........

I think that we have a different breed of commanders. I do not understand how someone can be in charge of a country and never had any personal experience. mad

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Post  bb1 Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:56 am

The Cold War continues as slanging match:

http://news.sky.com/story/1627171/alexander-litvinenko-murder-a-timeline

Alexander Litvinenko Murder: A Timeline
It has been almost 10 years since the former member of the KGB drank tea laced with polonium at a top London hotel.


Forgive me if I don't greatly care who poured him a polonium beverage - nasty deaths are one of the occupational hazards of spying.

And the timing of Cameron announcing this 'investigation', and this ludicrous assumption by the court:

:: 21 January, 2016: Sir Robert's report finds that Mr Putin "probably" approved the assassination of Mr Litvinenko

that they are privy to the inner workings of the Kremlin, is wince-makingly stupid,  clunking propaganda

Litvinenko was no angel, despite attempts to portray him as such, and it could have been just about any of the many people he crossed in his career as a spook.

I can't help thinking the Kremlin would have done something a bit more subtle, like shoving him under a Tube train.

This one is in the same territory as scientists committing suicide with butter knives, or spooks locking themselves in holdalls.
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Post  bb1 Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:43 am

A Russian view of all this:

http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/litvinenko-what-really-happened.html?m=1

Long story short, ex-KGB spies that are involved with all sorts of dubious characters from the Russian mob to Zionists, cannot really expect a long and healthy life.

And it is extremely unlikely that it was Putin in the restaurant with the teapot, whatever the more gullible may imagine.

Incidentally, if, say, Kim Philby had mysteriously died in odd circumstances in Moscow, whilst being feted for his treason by the Soviets, would anyone in the UK, apart from other traitors, have shed a tear for him?

No, thought not. Anyone wailing over Litvinenko is a hypocritical fool.
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Post  lily Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:36 pm

What a fabulous article, Bonny. Many thanks.
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Post  bb1 Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:04 pm

Who knows where the truth lies in this, Lily? Putin could personally have ordered the polonium, on a handwritten scroll. Or one of Litvinenko's many enemies could have done it, or he could have done it himself by carelessness.

When people swim in that murky pool, it should be no surprise when they meet premature ends.

And I doubt if many Americans would care if, say, Snowden ate a polonium sandwich. Hence my irritation with this hand-wringing hypocrisy.
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Post  lily Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:59 pm

It does sound plausible but it is sure to be one of those things that never gets properly solved. Pcorneater
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Post  bb1 Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:02 pm

No, I doubt if we will ever know the actual truth, Lily, and to be frank, I don't greatly care. Premature death is an occupational hazard in that line of business, and I don't think for one minute that the Litvinenkos of this world give a flying one for any of us.
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Post  lily Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:48 pm

Correct, Bonny. It is an interesting story though.
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Post  bb1 Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:59 pm

It would make a good movie.
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