Re: War in Ukraine

**bb1** Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:16 pm

The whole problem is, LL, 'Ukraine' has never been a real country with fixed borders, it's another one that is just lines on a map, with no thought to ethnicity.

Why should millions of people that have lived peacefully in eastern Ukraine for generations lose everything because of a US coup in Kiev? Would YOU want to be ruled by a bunch of corrupt neo-Nazis? I certainly wouldn't.

I absolutely support the right of people to decide these things for themselves and applaud their efforts in turning back the Azov brigade and the rest of the Nazi scum - why is there so little concern in the West about the appalling atrocities these shits have committed?

Anyway, it looks like the Peace Prize winner in the White House is going to get his war in the Middle East. No doubt he'll f*ck that up, too. Maybe Americans will start waking up when body bags start coming home again, or ISIS takes the war to them.

**bb1** Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:04 pm

The deal, according to the Mail:

1. Immediate and total ceasefire in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions from February 15
2. Withdrawal of all heavy weapons to create a buffer zone at least 50km (30 miles) for artillery with a calibre of 100mm or more, 70km for multiple rocket launch systems or 140km for Tornado multiple rocket launch systems and others.
The withdrawal of heavy weapons must begin on the second day after the ceasefire, ie February 17, and take no more than 14 days.
3. The zone for Ukrainian troops has to start from the de facto frontline. But for rebel forces it starts from the September 19 frontline according to last year's Minsk pact.
4. The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will check the ceasefire and heavy weaponry withdrawal from day one and can use satellites and drones.
5. On the first day after withdrawal of heavy weapons, dialogue must start on holding local elections in Lugansk and Donetsk as well as the future 'regime' in the rebel-held areas, based on Ukrainian legislation giving them temporary self-rule.
6. Ukraine's parliament must within 30 days pass a decree defining the geographical area that will have self-rule, based on the September agreement.
The separatist regions have the right to decide which language they use.
7. A law must enter force ensuring pardons and amnesty for those involved in the conflict in Donetsk and Lugansk, who will have immunity from prosecution and punishment.
8. Release and exchange all hostages and illegally detained prisoners on an 'all-for-all' basis, starting five days after withdrawal of heavy weapons.
9. Ensure distribution and access to humanitarian aid.
10. Both sides must work towards the restoration of social and economic links including payment of pensions, taxes.
11. Ukraine will restore the banking system in the conflict zones, with the possibility of an international mechanism to facilitate money transfers.
12. Withdrawal of all foreign armed groups, military equipment and mercenaries from Ukraine, observed by the OSCE. Disarmament of all illegal groups.

13. A new Ukraine constitution, agreed with Donetsk and Lugansk representatives, must enter force by end-2015 allowing for decentralisation.
Adoption of legislation on the separatist regions' special status, also by end-2015.
14. Local elections in separatist regions to be held, monitored by the OSCE, but no date specified.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2950358/Ukrainian-peace-deal-no-nearer-reached-14-hours-talks.html#ixzz3RYErmPpm
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Ah well, the American and Polish mercs can just trot down to the Middle East for the new war that is about to erupt.

**lily** Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:02 pm

Sounds about right...... mad

**bb1** Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:04 pm

This doesn't seem to be being reported much in the US, for some reason....

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-13/thirst-war-sen-inhofe-releases-fake-photos-russian-troops-ukraine

War in Ukraine - Page 7 20150213_ukr1_2_0

War in Ukraine - Page 7 20150213_ukr1_2_0

You can’t make this stuff up. Further proof to not believe anything the government says, and to not start anymore wars.

Quite; a wise person believes very little of what is coming out of Washington, and NOTHING that comes out of Kiev. The US politicians so eager to help Kiev kill even more Ukrainians didn't even bother to check the provenance of the 'evidence' they used.

**lily** Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:40 pm

I feel so saddened by all this.

**bb1** Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:47 pm

It's appalling to behold, Lily; it isn't even competent plotting and scheming, but still they're getting away with it. The worst thing is, I have NO doubt that if Bush was president and let all this happen, all Hell would break loose.

The progressive US media would have had screaming headlines exposing this warmongering and lying, but because the Obama administration is doing it - silence. It's one hundred times worse than anything Nixon did - at least no-one died at Watergate.

And they can't pretend they don't know.

**bb1** Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:32 pm

http://thenewsdoctors.com/nuland-attempts-kiev-version-2-0-in-skopje/

After having initiated her well-planned Maidan Square uprising in Kiev in early 2014, triggering Europe’s worst conflict in Ukraine since the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, Victoria Nuland, the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, recently attempted a Kiev-style putsch in Macedonia aimed at overthrowing that nation’s democratically-elected government of Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski. It is a hallmark of neoconservatives like Nuland and her arch-neoconservative husband, the Brookings Institution’s Robert Kagan, to disregard democratic elections if their candidates fail to win election. Although Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and Macedonian Prime Minister Gruevski were elected in free and fair elections, by all international metrics and norms, their governments were not as pro-NATO and pro-U.S. enough for the liking of Nuland and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) cabalists that surround her husband.

Nuland’s tactics differed somewhat in her Ukrainian and Macedonian campaigns. Her signature challah bread offerings to protesters at Kiev’s Maidan Square took the form of unsolicited offerings to the Macedonian press suggesting that Gruevksi was wiretapping as many as 20,000 Macedonians and that a videotape proving it was secretly made by Macedonia’s George Soros-financed leader of the opposition, Zoran Zaev, in a meeting he had with Gruevski.

Nuland has been charged by Macedonian intelligence with conspiring with Zaev of the Macedonian Social Democratic Union of Macedonia (SDSM), the former Communist Party that has been thoroughly co-opted by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and Soros operative. Also charged in the attempted putsch against Gruevski is Radmila Sekerinska. Zaev and Sekerinska are said by Macedonian insiders to be nothing more than fronts for former Prime Minister and President Branko Crvenkovski who continues to head up the SDSM and accept large amounts of largesse from such CIA NGO laundry operations as the National Democratic Institute (NDI), National Endowment for Democracy (NED), Freedom House, and Soros’s Open Society Institute (OSI) to foment a themed revolution against Gruevksi’s right-of-center VMRO-DPMNE government.

Full squalid story at link.

**lily** Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:55 pm

OMG.....signed disgusted in the US.

**bb1** Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:53 pm

Kiev version of the fall of the Debaltseve cauldron to the Donbass fighters:

http://news.sky.com/story/1429501/ukrainian-troops-withdraw-from-key-town

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Ukrainian troops have withdrawn from the town of Debaltseve following fierce fighting with pro-Russian rebels, the country's president has said.

Petro Poroshenko said: "This morning the Ukrainian armed forces together with the National Guard completed an operation for a planned and organised withdrawal from Debaltseve.

"As of now we can say that 80% of our units have left." ...more at link.

More realistic report of this mini-Stalingrad event:

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/

Yet another monumental failure for the junta
All my sources confirm that Debaltsevo is mostly in Novorussian hands and that the junta forces are in full retreat to the south of the pocket. All the top Novorussian brass was on hand today, including Kononov, Motorola, Givi, Mozgovoi and Zakharchenko as were many tens of Ukrainian prisoners. It appears that the junta forces were unable to provide the kind of resistance they showed in Peski, and that make sense because in Peski they were not surrounded and they had the fire support of Ukrainian forces just north and west of them. This time the cauldron is too deep and the "lid" too strong. See for yourself.

More at link.

It's being speculated that there were Westerners in the cauldron that NATO really doesn't want captured, because it would be even worse than the Get Outta My Face! incident. And that that is what the desperation for a cease-fire by Merkel was really all about.

Who knows? This will need history books written before anything resembling the truth comes out. Providing the crazies in the Obama regime haven't turned the world into a cinder before then.

Interesting to see a lot of comment in the West slowly turning into, Why are we faffing around annoying the Russians? They aren't chopping heads off, burning prisoners to death, or threatening to invade Italy. Haven't we more pressing problems than stopping a bunch of east Ukrainian farmers and miners from running their own affairs?

**bb1** Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:51 pm

That is completely biased, treats Porky, Obama, Psaki and co with utter contempt - and is also worthy of the old Spitting Images. rofl

**lily** Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:52 pm

They forgot "The President's Brain is Missing" rofl

**bb1** Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:29 pm

You can tell that the media department of the Donbass provisional government were really, really impressed by Obama's selfies, can't you? Pcorneater

**lily** Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:37 pm

What's not to like about them? rofl

I read some dumbass comments that he was just down to earth like everyone else. I'm not kidding. Rolling Eyes

**bb1** Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:39 pm

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-21/peace-ukraine-preparing-full-scale-war-russia-demands-west-supply-lethal-weapons

"We don't want to scare everybody, but we are preparing for full-scale war," warns Vadym Prystaiko - Ukraine's deputy foreign minister - telling CBC during a stunning interview that "what we expect from the world is that the world will stiffen up in the spine a little." Demanding that West provide 'lethal weapons' Prystaiko rages "everybody is afraid of fighting with a nuclear state. We are not anymore." Coming just a week after the Minsk Summit 'peace' deal and with Germany having warned they are likely unable to stop arms being supplied to Ukraine, Prystaiko concludes, "we would like [The West] to send lethal weapons to Ukraine... weapons to allow us to defend ourselves."

Frigging lunatic. It's not as if Ukraine is even a proper country - it didn't exist until the 1990s. If it keeps this up, Kiev will be the only capital city that's been liberated from Nazis TWICE in seventy years.

Best thing Donbass could do is build a damned great fence to keep the Nazis out - but leave an escape route for the poor conscripts that are fleeing service in the 'Ukrainian army'. AKA the nazi Azov brigades and Polish and American mercenaries.

**lily** Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:46 pm

OMG Is he for real? People like him should not be allowed around those kinds of weapons.

Will we be seeing Nuland offering cake?

**bb1** Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:55 pm

She's another one that should be in the dock, not in office, Lily.

Can you imagine the American reaction if, say, China stirred up trouble like this in Canada or Mexico? And the Chinese ambassador actively encouraged the trouble by handing out fortune cookies? Chinese officials and the head of Chinese intelligence flying in to cheer on the people that had overthrown the elected government and replaced it with an anti-American one?

And the Chinese premier then appointed his son to take charge of a big department in the new, 'democratic' regime? All the time accusing the US of being the aggressor?

**lily** Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:51 pm

I know!! They would be spitting feathers over it.

**bb1** Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:56 pm

IMO, the US would have invaded its errant neighbour long ago to 'keep the peace' or similar, Lily. They would almost certainly have taken pretty serious military action by now.

**lily** Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:15 pm

Everything is really upside down and then some. mad

**bb1** Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:04 pm

Ron Paul on that very point:

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/february/22/interventionism-kills-post-coup-ukraine-one-year-later/

The protests at the end of 2013 grew more dramatic and violent and soon a steady stream of US and EU politicians were openly participating, as protesters called for the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. Senator John McCain made several visits to Kiev and even addressed the crowd to encourage them.

Imagine if a foreign leader like Putin or Assad came to Washington to encourage protesters to overthrow the Obama Administration!

As we soon found out from a leaked telephone call, the US ambassador in Kiev and Assistant Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland, were making detailed plans for a new government in Kiev after the legal government was overthrown with their assistance.

**lily** Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:52 pm

Very wise words from Ron Paul, as usual.

**bb1** Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:18 pm

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-24/former-ukraine-deputy-pm-says-another-coup-can-not-be-ruled-out-among-currency-implo

A year or so on from the last coup in Ukraine, Ukraine’s former Prime Minister Sergey Arbuzov told TASS, with growing popular discontent, "another state coup can’t be ruled out in Ukraine." As the cease-fire deal hangs torn and tattered in the Debaltseve winds, the nation is a mess: a new gas dispute looms as Gazprom demands upfront payments; capital controls have been tightened as the $17.5bn IMF loan may not be enough; and the central bank governor faces prosecution as the economy craters. All of these factors have driven massive outflows from Ukraine and the Hryvnia has crashed to over 33 to the USD - a record high (and 70% devaluation from the last coup).

The Hryvnia has crashed...

As EmergingEquity reports, another state coup can’t be ruled out in Ukraine, with growing popular discontent, including among the leaders of the last year’s protests, Ukraine’s former Prime Minister Sergey Arbuzov told TASS on Friday. full squalid story at link.

Will there be cookies again? Will McCain be posing for photo-ops with neo-Nazis this time? What will happen to Hunter Biden's cushy job?

**lily** Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:42 pm

This comment hits the spot....

"If at first you don't secede, Coup, Coup, Coup, again."
- Victoria "Cookies" Nuland.

**Lamplighter** Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:50 pm

Looks like PM Orban here has made his mind up in which direction he's going to go.

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has called for efforts to ensure gas transports to Central Europe, including Hungary, via Turkey. Hungary aims to get gas via Turkey and Serbia, Orbán said after talks with Turkish counterpart Ahmet Davutoglu. The two sides agreed that growing tension in Eurasia was undesirable. “Instead of facing a permanent pressure of answering the question of East or West, our interests lie with being able to say East and West,” Orbán said. Among bilateral achievements, the prime minister highlighted the opening of an Eximbank branch office in Istanbul and record-high Hungarian exports to Turkey last year.

Davutoglu said that ties between the two countries were rapidly developing and Ankara is ready to give all the support it can in energy supplies to central Europe and Hungary. He thanked Hungary’s lasting support for Turkey’s EU accession aspirations. Earlier, Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó held talks with his Turkish counterpart Mevlut Cavusoglu and Turkish Economy Minister Nihat Zeybekci. After the meeting the foreign ministry said that Turkey’s role is expected to increase significantly in terms of energy security for Central Europe.

Hungary and Turkey have long been 'connected' to each other - the Ottoman Turks ruled Hungary for 150 years. I will not comment, at present. LL

**bb1** Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:55 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1433447/british-infantry-in-ukraine-training-mission

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British infantry will take part in a training mission in Ukraine, David Cameron has announced.

The military personnel will help train the Ukrainian army and supply tactical intelligence, the Prime Minister told MPs on the Liaison Committee.

Sky's Defence Correspondent Alistair Bunkall reports that around 75 British soldiers will go from the beginning of March and will be based in the west of the country, some of them for up to six months.

He said: "We are talking about medical training, infantry training, intelligence logistics and the like.

"So this is not arming them with weapons, it is arming them with knowledge and it is another aspect to Britain's help for the Ukrainian government to help them repel the Russian rebels."

The, er, what? He must mean the East Ukrainians that didn't fancy their chances under a government of neo-nazis, especially after seeing dozens of their fellow-countrymen and women burned to death in Odessa and the West not seeming to give a f*ck.

It's NOTHING to do with the UK. Germany, France, Ukraine and Russia have hammered out a ceasefire that is more or less holding, and that smarmy clown wants to send British troops there?

I am sick to death of this arrogance, meddling and warmongering.

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