GADDIFI TOPPLED!!!!!TRIPOLI CELEBRATING!!!!!!!!

I hope it's safe to ask this here, the rest of cyberspace is a bit like a bear pit on this issue. I have not forgotten Lockerbie, but in his own country, against his own people, what exactly did he do? I have been reading today that electricity is free, state funded, the same with education and healthcare, banks offer only non interest loans. Young couples marrying in Tripoli at least are given large sums of money by the state.

What did Gadaffi do to his people?

I can't find any information. (Please pardon my ignorance)

barbiecar wrote:I hope it's safe to ask this here, the rest of cyberspace is a bit like a bear pit on this issue. I have not forgotten Lockerbie, but in his own country, against his own people, what exactly did he do? I have been reading today that electricity is free, state funded, the same with education and healthcare, banks offer only non interest loans. Young couples marrying in Tripoli at least are given large sums of money by the state.

What did Gadaffi do to his people?

I can't find any information. (Please pardon my ignorance)

He 'disappeared many of his own people as a starter. There are mass graves full of dissidents all over the place; I don't know what you have been reading, barbie, but it is not the truth,believe me. Where have you been reading the above?

ETA: here is a list:

Here is it how lovely Gaddafi rules is when he came into power in 1969.

A generation from now, this is what he will be remembered for:
• Expelling all ethnic Italians in 1970.
• Expelling Libya's Jewish population.
• Banning all opposition to his rule.
• Making engaging in political conversations with foreigners punishable by up to three years in prison.
• Making it a capital crime to form political parties.
• Executing political dissidents in public and then rebroadcasting said executions on state television channels.
• Criminalizing homosexuality, with the punishment for homosexuality being up to five years in prison.
• Forcibly Arabizing the Berbers by forbidding parents to give their children Berber names, banning the use of the Berber language in schools, and assigning Arabic names to Berber towns.
• Making theft punishable by amputation of hands and adultery by 100 lashes.
• Making the testimony of women and non-Muslims inadmissible in criminal cases.
• Torturing prisoners, both before and during the current civil war.
• Sending out assassins to kill Libyans who had fled to other countries just to live free.
• Supporting terrorist groups, including groups not even related to Libyan affairs.
• Having his forces fire upon peaceful demonstrators back in February of this year. This is what led to the uprising in the Libyan people in the first place.

Gaddafi is like Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. They are both Authoritarian leaders who killed their people in fear they are a threat.

Oh and add making sure his country became a pariah. LL

Bonny, I have to assume that the Father of one of the victims knows considerably more than we do about this case, and if he thinks that Magrahi is innocent then he must have a reason.

And it's not as though we don't know what a manipulative barstard Gaddafi was. He was never going to hand over anyone who could be linked to him.

Sadly, I think Lockerbie got stitched up good and proper. There is no virtue in convicting an innocent man.

It was a newspaper discussion LL. It surprised me that I cannot recall complaints against him from his own people before now.

barbiecar wrote:It was a newspaper discussion LL. It surprised me that I cannot recall complaints against him from his own people before now.

Nobody dared to even speak a word of dissent, Barbie, they would be arrested, tortured and usually killed. There were no rules of law, no opposition parties, no constitution, no rights to human treatment; he was probably one of the worse of the dictators, and the craftiest. You are possibly too young to remember the Soviet era, I suspect, so you will never have experienced totalitarian rule. LL

I read somewhere that all this shit was free. But there doesn't seem to be much evidence of this. So it was almost certainly propaganda. A bit like, "All my people love me." And we all know what happened to that.

Incidentally, apparently Heating was free in Russia which could be why Russia went broke. That and absolutely no incentive.

It was like the Soviet system, where access to life's little luxuries was indeed free - provided you were a loyal and eager member of the Communist party/Gaddafi clan. Simply by ratting out your friends and family to the secret police torturers, all sorts of goodies were yours.

Two of the biggest moans here are having to pay for health care and for heating, which were free under the Communists along with other 'perks', which as bonny says, were yours if you toed the party line. They were cosseted from the cradle to the grave. Likewise in Libya - one only has to read about the happy life you could have if you kept stumm - oh, and you lived in Sirte, where Gadaffi spent millions on 'his' capital city' as he called it. By the way, here you don't pay tax on ANY earnings, savings, investments etc if you are over 60 and you ride totally free of charge on all public transport if you are over 65 unless you choose to go 1st class on the trains - in which case you just pay an upgrade; for instance if I were to go from here to the capital city, a 3 hour journey, I would pay about £2 upgrade and 50p for a reserved seat. But the locals don't see that as a bonus!!!! The tax thing, I do appreciate, as I opted to pay all taxes here so I don't pay anything, but I usually drive everywhere. LL

This rather comes under the heading of, No sh*t, Sherlock...

Post-Mortem Confirms Gaddafi Shot In Head

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16094382

Al Jazeera Live Blog:

16 min ago

Libya's interim national council said on Sunday the North African state would uphold all international agreements and treaties in a celebration to declare liberation after Muammar Gaddafi was captured and killed last week.

"The Libyan people, as they establish a state of law, firstly, assure the world of their respect for all Libya's signed agreements according to international standards," Abdul Hafiz Ghoga, the council's vice-chairman said.

1 hour 43 min ago

Libya officially declared liberation, with National Transitional Council officials chanting "raise your head high, you are a free Libyan" on Sunday after 42 years of one-man rule by Muammar Gaddafi, who was captured and killed last week.

Abdul Hafiz Ghoga, the council's vice-chairman, wrapped with a tri-colour flag, took to the podium, smiling and declared liberation, echoing slogans first head in Egypt when long-time ruler Hosni Mubarak was toppled.

Tens of thousands of Libyans gathered in Benghazi chanted back.

1 hour 45 min ago

The ceremony to mark an end to eight months of conflict and to announce the liberation of Libya after Muammar Gaddafi's death began on Sunday in the eastern city of Benghazi.

National Transitional Council leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil and other officials attended the ceremony where they began with a Koranic reading and singing the national anthem. Many of those in the crowd waved the new Libyan flag.

2 hours 51 min ago

Libyan revolutionary fighters are surrounding an area south of the town of Bani Walid where a fugitive son of Muammar Gaddafi, Saif al-Islam, is believed to have taken refuge, a military commander of the interim National Transitional Council (NTC) said on Sunday.

2 hours 53 min ago

Lebanon's state-run news agency says a Foreign Ministry delegation has left to Libya to follow up on the case of top Shia cleric missing since 1978.

The National News Agency quoted the head of the delegation, Haitham Jumaa, as saying that now that Muammar Gaddafi's regime is gone, they will have contacts in Tripoli over the case of Imam Moussa al-Sadr. The delegation left Sunday.

Al-Sadr, Lebanon's Shia Muslim religious leader, flew to Tripoli for a week of talks with Libyan officials in 1978. He was never seen or heard from again.

The case has been a long-standing sore point in Lebanon. Authorities blamed Gaddafi and his aides for the disappearance of al-Sadr and the imam's two companions.

2 hours 57 min ago

A bullet that hit Muammar Gaddafi's head may have been fired by one of his own guards during a shootout with government forces in his hometown of Sirte, Libya's outgoing prime minister said on Sunday.

Gaddafi was killed on Thursday as government fighters routed his followers from their remaining positions in the city but the circumstances of his death remain unclear.

Mahmoud Jibril said a coroner's medical report showed Gaddafi was already wounded when he was found in a drainage tube.

"He was taken out, put in that truck and on their way to the field hospital they got crossfire on both sides and they didn't know if the bullet in the head was coming from his own security brigades or from the revolutionary people," Jibril told reporters at a business forum in Jordan.

I have no reason ... to doubt the credibility of that report," he said.

3 hours 1 min ago

Reuters - Libya's departing prime minister said on Sunday consultations were under way to form an interim government within a month, replacing the country's National Transitional Council.

"There are consultations which started to form an ... interim government. This process will take, I think, from one week to one month approximately. This is my expectation. It might go longer, it might be less than that," Mahmoud Jibril told reporters in English.

Elections to the country's new national congress that would replace the governing National Transitional Council would follow as soon as possible afterwards, he said. He said he did not plan to stand for any official position in Libya.

6 hours 37 min ago

Muammar Gaddafi died from a gunshot wound, according to a doctor involved in his autopsy, the Reuters news agency is reporting.

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16095250

Libya: A Bright Future Without Gaddafi
0Comments
4:01pm UK, Monday October 24, 2011
Mark Stone, Sky News reporter

Forty miles to the west of Tripoli sit some of the most stunning Roman ruins in the world. Sabratha was built 2,300 years ago and is largely intact.

For 42 years, though, the site has not seen the tourists it deserves.
Now, if the wind blows the right way, the ruins represent one of so many different opportunities for Libya.
If tourism is the most exciting opportunity, the most lucrative is oil. Libya really is the land of black gold.
Gaddafi knew that and for a man who rejected capitalism he did a good job developing the oil industry.
The infrastructure is in place but Libyans have not yet seen the benefits of it.
Dr Alan George from Oxford University knows the country well. He explains that oil can have a curse, and does not necessarily bring prosperity for all.



Libya is home to some of the most pristine Roman ruins in the world
"The big problem with oil is that it is effectively a rental income," he tells me.
"You don't have to work for a living. You just turn the taps on and the oil flows. It's easier for people to take a bureaucratic job."
Dr George, who has written books on Syria, from where he is now banned, and Jordan is cautiously optimistic about Libya's future.
"Given a fair wind politically, they could do a lot. Libya is very well placed; a lot better placed than many other Middle Eastern countries. It's a large country with a small population and with a great deal of oil.
"That alone sums up the potential.
"It's in a very good position for the future. Add to that the fact that it's got a long Mediterranean coast, the potential really is there."

Muammar Gaddafi's Green Book, which has been required reading for all until now, claimed to solve the contradictions within capitalism and communism. But Gaddafi's 'third way' ended up turning Libya into a strange contradiction itself.
Walk around the capital Tripoli, and you'll see signs of capitalist-like development everywhere. Some $120bn were set aside by Gaddafi for projects across the country.
New office blocks dominate the portside and everywhere there are cranes, but they've been still for seven months.
Work will now begin again but only if order is maintained. Libyans were largely united in their quest to remove Gaddafi. But now that he is gone, that revolutionary unity could fracture.

Lord Trefgarne is the Chairman of the Libyan British Business Council. He has just returned from a trip to Tripoli.
"Libya certainly does have a unique opportunity. But whether they will grasp that or not effectively and successfully remains to be seen."
Is he excited by the prospects?
"I am not sure that's quite the right word." he tells me.
"I am enthused, but I think we have to be realistic. There will be substantial opportunities but they won't be handed out on a plate."




Libya has the infrastructure it needs to be prosperous

So Libyans have the oil, they have 1,000 miles of untouched Mediterranean coastline and they have the history. But behind the united front which brought Gaddafi down are many different factions, tribes and ideas.
Gaddafi's politics and policies created a contradiction that brought him down. The future could be a democratic, free-market, capitalist but Islamist state. That sounds like another contradiction but it is one that could just work.
Aristotle, who wrote at the time Sabratha was built, said of Libya: "It always brings forth something new". More than 2,000 years on, they are praying he was right.

Good luck to them. They already are ahead with their staggering oil wealth.

lily wrote:Good luck to them. They already are ahead with their staggering oil wealth.

I'm not sure that isn't the problem.

I think...Libya may be in a better position than most, because while they clearly need help to get things moving again, and especially medical assistance, etc., they are not a poor country; unusually, they don't actually need money.

And the big oil companies have been in Libya all along, it isn't as they are going to descend on the country out of nowhere.

It's really in the hands of the Libyan people now; it won't be easy, but they can go forward now, instead of living in fear?

Conclusive evidence that dead tyrants develop the 'smell of death' after several days, even when being kept in a supermarket chiller:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16095070

Soldiers handed face masks to adults and children as they queued, to help ward off the stench of death and risk of disease.
Two NTC officials confirmed the decision to shut off the area to the public, giving no reason.
"That's enough," said one of the guards.
"He's been causing us as much trouble dead as he did alive.

bb1 wrote:Conclusive evidence that dead tyrants develop the 'smell of death' after several days, even when being kept in a supermarket chiller:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16095070

Soldiers handed face masks to adults and children as they queued, to help ward off the stench of death and risk of disease.
Two NTC officials confirmed the decision to shut off the area to the public, giving no reason.
"That's enough," said one of the guards.
"He's been causing us as much trouble dead as he did alive.

You mean, they didn't need sniffer dogs?

bb1 wrote:I think...Libya may be in a better position than most, because while they clearly need help to get things moving again, and especially medical assistance, etc., they are not a poor country; unusually, they don't actually need money.

And the big oil companies have been in Libya all along, it isn't as they are going to descend on the country out of nowhere.

It's really in the hands of the Libyan people now; it won't be easy, but they can go forward now, instead of living in fear?

Absolutely, Bonny. They also have enough money to pay for as much outside help as they need to get going. I did read that British construction firms have been urged (by the UK government) to get over there.

lily wrote:

bb1 wrote:I think...Libya may be in a better position than most, because while they clearly need help to get things moving again, and especially medical assistance, etc., they are not a poor country; unusually, they don't actually need money.

And the big oil companies have been in Libya all along, it isn't as they are going to descend on the country out of nowhere.

It's really in the hands of the Libyan people now; it won't be easy, but they can go forward now, instead of living in fear?

Absolutely, Bonny. They also have enough money to pay for as much outside help as they need to get going. I did read that British construction firms have been urged (by the UK government) to get over there.

That's what's worrying me.

Sabot wrote:

lily wrote:

bb1 wrote:I think...Libya may be in a better position than most, because while they clearly need help to get things moving again, and especially medical assistance, etc., they are not a poor country; unusually, they don't actually need money.

And the big oil companies have been in Libya all along, it isn't as they are going to descend on the country out of nowhere.

It's really in the hands of the Libyan people now; it won't be easy, but they can go forward now, instead of living in fear?

Absolutely, Bonny. They also have enough money to pay for as much outside help as they need to get going. I did read that British construction firms have been urged (by the UK government) to get over there.

That's what's worrying me.

Shouldn't do, actually. The British firms have been in the background for some time, and they are not after the oil. I have it on good authority from a friend who has Libyan friends that the Brits are well thought of over there. They are considered trustworthy. LL

I heard something similar, LL. Also, the Brits have helped them to where they are right now.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/us-libya-idUSTRE79F1FK20111024

This is a relevant paragraph of the article....

"He will be buried tomorrow in a simple burial with sheikhs attending the burial. It will be an unknown location in the open desert," the official told Reuters by telephone, adding that the decomposition of the body had reached the point where the "corpse cannot last any longer."

ETA: More relevant paragraphs......

However, some of the anti-Gaddafi rebels' Western allies have expressed disquiet about the treatment of Gaddafi after his capture and after his death, and worry that Libya's new leaders will not uphold their promise to respect human rights.

"They were not pleasant images," said British Prime Minister David Cameron, an early supporter of the rebellion.

"Everyone understands that is not what should have happened. It should have ended in a trial and should have ended in Gaddafi facing justice," Cameron told parliament in London.

As their Tunisian and Egyptian neighbors whose uprisings inspired Libyans to revolt held or contemplated free elections, fellow Arabs also voiced distaste at Gaddafi's treatment, even though sympathy for the fallen strongman was in short supply.

"Forty-two dark years under a merciless dictator has naturally left the Libyan people very damaged," said Mahmoud Nofal, a 36-year-old bank employee in Cairo.

"It has driven them mad for revenge. The rotting body is just emblematic of the rotten political and social environment under Gaddafi."

We have to remember that they were to all intents and purposes fighting a war with Gaddafi's men. The kill or be killed reality aka the fight or flight reflex with the incredible surges of adrenalin could not be shut off in an instant?

They did what they had to do and it is all well and good people pontificating from a position of safety as to what they should have done.

Good morning!

Al Jazeera:

Gaddafi's body removed for burial
Libya's NTC appears to have decided that an anonymous grave would ensure the site did not become a shrine.
Last Modified: 25 Oct 2011 05:25

The bodies of the toppled Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, his son Mutassim and a former aide have been moved from a commercial freezer in a warehouse area of Misrata in anticipation of burial, according to a security guard.

Ibrahim Beitalmal, a local military spokesman, said the burial was likely to take place on Tuesday. He said the three men would be interred in unmarked graves in a secret location to avoid vandalism.

Asked about the removal of the bodies from the freezer, he said he was unaware of the process of burial getting under way. However, Salem al Mohandes, a security guard at the warehouse complex, said the bodies were moved late on Monday from the freezer, where they had been on display for the past four days.

"Our job is finished," al-Mohandes said. "[Gaddafi] was transferred and the military council of Misrata took him away to an unknown location. I don't know whether they buried him or not."

An Associated Press Television News team saw three vehicles leave the warehouse area late on Monday. The team then entered the freezer and found it empty.

An official from the National Transitional Council (NTC) said on Monday Gaddafi's burial will be in a secret desert grave.

'Loyalists executed'

The developments came as the New York-based rights group, Human Rights Watch (HRW), warned of a "trend of killings, looting and other abuses" by those who had fought against Gaddafi.

HRW said it had found 53 decomposing bodies, apparently Gaddafi loyalists, in Sirte, and that there were indications they may have been executed by revolutionary forces.
The bodies were found on the lawn of the abandoned Mahari hotel, and some had their hands bound. Peter Bouckaert, a researcher for HRW, said the hotel had been under the control of NTC fighters from Misrata before the killings took place. The condition of the bodies suggested that the men had been killed between October 15 and 19, HRW said.

Bloodstains on the grass and spent cartridges indicated that some were shot and killed at the spot they were discovered. "This latest massacre seems part of a trend of killings, looting, and other abuses committed by armed anti-Gaddafi fighters who consider themselves above the law," Bouckaert said in a statement.

NTC fighters in Misrata, a city that had been besieged by Gaddafi's troops for weeks earlier this year, had no immediate comment.

The US state department termed the report "extremely disturbing".

Gene Cretz, the US ambassador to Libya, had "raised it with the National Transitional Council today and asked them to conduct a full investigation", according to a state department spokesperson.

Inquiry ordered

Earlier, the NTC ordered an investigation into the death of Gaddafi after international pressure to examine the circumstances surrounding his death.

A commission of inquiry is being put in place to investigate the killing of Gaddafi, who was captured by NTC fighters outside Sirte on Thursday and shot shortly afterwards, apparently while being transported to Misrata.

"In response to international calls, we have started to put in place a commission tasked with investigating the circumstances of Muammar Gaddafi's death in the clash with his circle as he was being captured," Mustafa Abdel Jalil, the head of the NTC, said in Bengazi on Monday.

Abdel Jalil also announced that the process of forming a new interim government was already under way, and would be completed "within two weeks".

He said all Libyans "wanted to try [Gaddafi] for what he has done to them. From executions, to imprisonment, to throwing away the Libyan wealth ... or using that wealth against the Libyan people".

The NTC has insisted that Gaddafi was killed in "crossfire" between NTC fighters and pro-Gaddafi loyalists after his capture from a drainage pipe outside his hometown of Sirte. Some members of the NTC, as well as of the international community, have expressed doubt over this version of events.

The US, Britain and international rights groups have all called for an investigation into how Gaddafi was killed in what appeared to be one of the final acts of Libya's eight-month civil war.

Critics have also said that the fact that Gaddafi's body, along with that of his son Mutassim, was put on display raises questions about the NTC's commitment to the rule of law.

Abdel Jalil has said Gaddafi may have been killed by his own loyalists in order to escape being implicated by him in any trial.

"Some people may have wanted him to have been tried to extend their feeling of relief at his downfall," he said.

"Free Libyans wanted Gaddafi to spend as much time in prison as possible and feel humiliation as much as possible."

.........................................................................................

Video footage shows 'Gaddafi's killer'
Published 24 October 2011 11:04

Video footage has emerged of fighters loyal to Libya's National Transitional Council claiming to be the assassins of ex-Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi. Today, his body remains on display to the public, and it is still unclear where he will be buried. Meanwhile Gaddafi's son, Saadi Gaddafi, says he's "outraged by the vicious brutality" shown towards his father and his brother Muatassim, who were both killed last week. More video clips showing Gaddafi's last moments are slowly trickling in, and they are likely to come under closer scrutiny in the coming days as the United Nations, rights organisations, and more recently, the United States, backs an investigation into the deaths of Gaddafi and his son. Al Jazeera's Khadija Magardie reports.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-26/gaddafi27s-bodyguard-final-days/3600628/?site=melbourne

Gaddafi bodyguard lifts lid on dictator's final days

Middle East correspondent

Updated October 26, 2011 07:56:52

One of Moamar Gaddafi's former bodyguards has described the Libyan dictator's desperate last days as fighters closed in on his final stronghold in the town of Sirte.

Gaddafi, his son Mutassim, and his former defence minister were buried in secret at dawn on Tuesday after their bodies spent days on public display in a cold storeroom.

Now Mansour Dao, who was caught last week alongside Gaddafi, has described how the former leader was forced to flee from one hideout to another as fighters loyal to Libya's new leaders closed in last week.

Dao said Gaddafi and Mutassim, with a small band of loyal henchmen, would squat in abandoned homes with no TV, no phones and no electricity, using candles for light.

They were largely cut off from the outside world.

He said Gaddafi's mood would swing from rage to despair as enemy fighters slowly closed in and the last remnants of his 42-year regime crumbled around him.

He said the former dictator spent his final days writing notes and boiling tea on a coal stove.
"He wasn't leading the battle," the bodyguard said.
"His sons did that. He didn't plan anything."

Gaddafi was shot dead after being captured by fighters loyal to Libya's new rulers on Thursday.

Now his body, along with those of Mutassim and former defence minister Abu Bakr Younis have been buried at a secret location in the Libyan desert.

A military convoy took their corpses out of Misrata in the dead of night and the National Transitional Council (NTC) says religious leaders performed a simple burial around dawn.

One Libyan official, Mahmoud Shammam, says a strict fatwa or edict was issued to keep the location a closely guarded secret.

"I can't say exactly what the content of the fatwa is, but it says that his body should not be buried in Muslim cemeteries and should not be buried in a known place to avoid any sedition," he said.

The NTC has now agreed to launch an inquiry into Gaddafi's death after pressure from foreign leaders and human rights groups.

International concern has grown after evidence that Gaddafi was still alive after his capture but later died from a bullet wound to the head.

The former dictator was dragged from a drainpipe, where he had been hiding after his convoy was hit by fire while trying to flee Sirte as the town fell.

But Mahmoud Shammam says violence towards Gaddafi was to be expected.

"If a group of revolutionaries capture a killer who shed their blood for 42 years, do you think they would kiss his head?" he said.

"He killed young men and described them as rats, he launched Grad missiles against them, aircraft bombed them and tanks shelled them, he raped their women.

"What else do you think they would have done to Gaddafi?"

With Gaddafi now buried and much of his family in exile or dead, his son and one-time heir Saif al-Islam Gaddafi appears to be the last family member still on the run.

He managed to escape Sirte last week and is now trying to flee the country according to officials in Niger, who say he is heading their way.

Ethnic Tuaregs are apparently guiding him across a sea of sand dunes between Libya, Algeria and Niger, where other family and dozens of Gaddafi loyalists have already fled.

But any freedom might be short lived.

Saif al-Islam is wanted by the International Criminal Court and Niger's government says if he enters their country he will be handed over to court officials.

"If a group of revolutionaries capture a killer who shed their blood for 42 years, do you think they would kiss his head?" he said.

"He killed young men and described them as rats, he launched Grad missiles against them, aircraft bombed them and tanks shelled them, he raped their women.

"What else do you think they would have done to Gaddafi?"


Precisely; there would not have been nearly as much faux- concern if it all hadn't been filmed on cellphones, and on the air almost as it was happening.

It has to have been one of the most undignified exits from this world by a dictator EVER.