War in Ukraine

http://rt.com/news/173812-ukraine-lugansk-shelling-killed/

20 civilians killed in Lugansk shelling - City Hall

At least 20 have been killed in shelling of the city of Lugansk, eastern Ukraine. The information was confirmed by the local city administration.

"Today intense bombardment of Lugansk has continued. Shells are falling in almost all districts of the city,” the administration said in a statement. “According to preliminary information, more than 20 civilians have been killed since this morning."



That's 20 deaths that most definitely ARE the responsibility of the Chocolate President of Ukraine. Poroshenko might at least have had the decency to stop the killing till the dead had been removed from the crash site.

rtnews?  Russia Today? "In 2013 President Putin stated “Certainly the channel is funded by the government, so it cannot help but reflect the Russian government’s official position” ....  About as unbiased as Fox News or The China Daily.  No comment.  LL

Here's the thing, LL. Both RT and AJ have been truthful and accurate about the ongoing referendum campaign - unlike the BBC, which is making Goebells look neutral and honest. US media coverage has been appalling, little more than sh*te about Braveheart.

The BBC is actually ignoring stories right on its own doorstep. The BBC did NOT report on an anti-austerity demo, by tens of thousands of people, outside one of its offices in England.

So, if I know a news outlet is being truthful about something I do know about, its reasonable to assume they are being fairly honest about other matters.

I ignore propaganda from both RT and AJ and look at numbers, direct quotes, etc, things that can be checked against other sources. I don't assume any one media outlet is telling the truth, because they aren't, ever. Some are more accurate than others, though.

http://rt.com/news/174064-russia-bans-american-guantanamo/

Russia bars entry to 12 Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib-linked Americans

Russia has responded to US sanctions against its officials and businessmen by banning 12 more Americans from entering the country. Ten of those in the list are implicated in the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, and two are connected to Guantanamo.

“We have mentioned before that it is futile to communicate with us in the language of sanctions. Such measures will not be allowed to pass without consequence,” said a statement on the foreign ministry website.

Among the most high-profile targets are Rear Adm. Richard W. Butler the Commander, of the Guantanamo Joint Task Force, who is accused of “approved the use force to end the hunger strike among inmates”, and Ricardo Sanchez, a retired general who commanded the Coalition Ground Forces in Iraq in 2003 and 2004, who was “directly responsible for the control of Abu Ghraib prison.”

Most of the others on the list are military personnel, who were found guilty of self-documented mistreatment and torture of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib.

It also includes the high-profile US District Judge Gladys Kessler, who has repeatedly ruled on the legality of force feeding at Guantanamo’s Camp Delta, though ironically, was responsible for the landmark ruling, passed in May, that bans the US Army from force feeding Syrian detainee Abu Wa'el Dhiab.

DETAILS TO FOLLOW


No US version as yet. I assume these people weren't actually trying to get into Russia, it's just more tit-for-tat.

Some good points here. LL
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/19/vladimir-putin-flight-mh17-disaster

That's an interesting piece, LL, but I still have one question.

Within hours, even minutes, of the Ukraine air disaster, there was only one culprit in the eyes of much of the world. The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, was already in the dock.

I sat here and watched the Official Version go round the globe within minutes of the crash. So, how did Kiev know so quickly that it was a BuK missile?

The wreckage has NOT been examined yet. Why was accident, bomb, or shoot-down by jet ruled out instantly?

You won't read or watch RT; I do. Russia has been begging for a cease-fire, and begging for the international community to see what is happening on the ground in eastern Ukraine. Lavrov was, yesterday, begging for international experts to go to the crash site.

Now, the US and UK can ignore this as much as they like, feed as much anti-Russia propaganda to the media as they like. They still can't make it be true.

Think back to Syria, when the US and UK were flat-out lying about that gas attack and Russia was telling the truth.

There's no good guys and bad guys any more, if there ever were, just various shades of grey. And the grey of the West is currently much darker than the grey of Russia, whether that suits the US state department or not.

I'll start believing what the West says when Blair and Bush are put on trial for war crimes; those two lied to start a war and caused millions of deaths. And Cameron and Obama very nearly did a repeat performance over Syria.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/18/guardian-view-shooting-malaysian-airliner-ukraine

That's another good piece, but unfortunately, Kiev isn't listening....

But what is more likely is that this tragedy will lead to a reduction in hostilities, at least for a while. Could such a reduction prove permanent? Neither the Ukrainian nor the rebel side will want to be seen as rushing to resume the fighting.

Kiev's artillery was all but drowning out some of the reports from the crash site, as they carried on attacking civilians. The western media appear to be ignoring the fact that people in the east have been scraping the remains off their loved ones up with shovels for some weeks now, and were doing so again yesterday.

I don't like arguing, bonny, as you know, but let me ask you a question in return. Have you ever lived under Soviet rule?  For most East Europeans, the arrival of Gorbachov as leader of the Soviets was a sign of hope, a chance of democracy.  But too many of the old practices still color the ex-commie states, and one of these was a particular practice, that of replacement.  When the Soviets occupied the satellite states one of their first things was to 'replace' the indigenous population, or at least part of it with ethnic Russians.  The displaced locals were relocated, often to labor camps.   It was a strategy to guard the Soviet borders.  The pro-Russians in the eastern part of the Ukraine are ethnic Russians, descendants of the Russians placed there after WW2 and that is why they want to be part of Mother Russia.   This is why the Baltic states are so nervous, unlike here, they still have a large minority of Russians who owe allegiance to the Motherland.  Russia is huge, it's military etc far excedes anything Eastern Europe has put together, and memories run deep.   Europe, and I include myself in this, are scared.  Putin has a past, not a nice one, and his armies could rampage across Europe in no time.   This present situation is as scary to Europe as the resurgance of China is to S Korea, Japan and Vietnam.   LL
Oh forgot to add, Putin calls anyone who disagrees with him a nazi, irrespective of who it is which makes me one, I suppose, as I definitely do not agree with him.

LL, this is silly, the Soviet Union is long gone. I know Putin isn't a nice man - but he hasn't killed millions of people, WE have. We're not the good guys any more.

Do good guys do this?

http://journal-neo.org/2014/04/19/how-the-west-gassed-thousands-to-death-in-damascus/

Please, read some of the meticulous, non-Russian research about what the US, UK and NATO have been doing since the Soviet Union fell and there was no-one to stop them. We aren't the good guys.

Frankly, NATO should have been disbanded after communism collapsed as it no longer served a purpose. Bombing Yugoslavia doesn't count.

Putin calls the Kiev government Nazis because they ARE Nazis. That's what the Right Sektor is, that's what the Maidan protesters were. They burned people alive in Odessa, FFS. I hope to God Ukraine never gets into the EU, I don't want to see scum like that in the British Isles, we have enough home-grown scum.

I do not consider myself silly, bonny, I have genuine fears for the safety of Europe.   If anything does go pear-shaped I do have a bolt hole, I can decamp to Austria.   I have read much on this, and I do think Blair and Bush should be tried for war crimes.   But you are lucky that you are sitting on the edge of Europe and I don't think Russia cares too much about the UK which they consider as a province of the US anyway.   I certainly am not sticking up for the US, UK and NATO or for what they did in the Middle East.  I am an old man, I have seen too much animosity, I just want to end my days in peace.   Backing out of this now as I make it a rule not to argue with those I hold dear.  Let us agree to disagree as good friends. LL     

Fair do's, LL.   

I'm funny about being lied to, I don't like it. I expect Russia to lie, why wouldn't they? It's what they do. What I didn't expect was the criminal deceit from the UK, US, NATO, etc., about a variety of matters in which we were supposedly the good guys and heroes, whipped up by tabloids into the same kind of stupidity which got millions slaughtered a century ago.

I can now appreciate how decent Germans felt in the thirties when they saw their country being taken over by murderous lunatics, and their fellow-Germans cheering the madness on.

Thank you, dear lady. Lying is the 20th century disease and it is now so easy to do with social media outlets. It is also 'fashionable' to be economical with the truth to cover up failings. Diseases are catching, it is easier to tell a whoopsy than tell the truth. And then there are the conspiracy theories which are gathering pace. LL

And dishonest governments fuel conspiracy theories.

This is interesting as it seems to run parallel with what is happening in East Ukraine. It's the segment called 'Moldava, under the influence.' The link should open straight into the page with the program. LL

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/

Dishonesty makes me see red too. Pardon the pun. I would rather be told the truth that I didn't like than a lie that I might.

Moldova seems much more stable, LL, and already under various protective 'wings'. And it doesn't have any oil or natural gas, so isn't enticing to predators?

bb1 wrote:Moldova seems much more stable, LL, and already under various protective 'wings'. And it doesn't have any oil or natural gas, so isn't enticing to predators?

No but it has defied Russia over membership of the EU who has retaliated:

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-moldovan-fruit-ban-takes-effect/25463178.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-bans-fruit-imports-from-moldova/503751.html

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-s-retaliation-over-eu-deal-awaits-moldova/503597.html

Moldova is the poorest country in Europe, most people are on or below the poverty line. LL

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-team-dispatched-to-ukraine-amid-crisis-wi/

A team of Pentagon officials is heading to Ukraine to help the country rebuild its fractured military, a mission that lawmakers and analysts expect will result in recommendations for greater military assistance in the country’s fight against pro-Russia separatists amid international outrage over the downing of a commercial airplane.
Within the next few weeks, a group of Defense Department representatives who specialize in strategy and policy will head to Kiev to evaluate specific programs that the United States may want to help bolster, said Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-team-dispatched-to-ukraine-amid-crisis-wi/#ixzz38JcUNxd7
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

More at link.

Here's an idea - why not try DEMOCRACY? As Washington doesn't seem to like the result of the last eastern Ukraine election, why not have another one, with the UN involved?

Or is the US planning to pour lives and money down the drain forcing the east to stay in an artificial political union they don't want?

Oh wait, I know. Because the US knows its puppets in Kiev have NO chance of winning, due to massacring so many civilians in the east.

I take it the US has forgotten how well its 'help' worked out in Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc?

Bonny, this is another good article.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/22/372329/western-leadership-shot-down-in-ukraine/

That's an excellent piece, Lily:

Irresponsibility on steroids is all we have seen from 95% of the Western statements coming out on the Malaysian plane crash in Ukraine.

The Kiev government, who can't tell the truth about anything, is still comfortably in first place, soon to eclipse “Baghdad Bob” for the gold medal of bogus claims. Bob was Saddam's press spokesman telling us that Iraqi forces were destroying the American invaders.

Without even a token amount of time allowed to sift through the evidence of this horrible tragedy right in the middle of a war zone, a totally unnecessary one, Western leaders and politicians have been tripping over each other playing Mr. Tough guy with baseless accusations and threats toward Russia before the dead were collected.

I am genuinely shocked by the conduct of the US, UK and one or two others, Lily, they must think everyone is stupid.

How long did it take internet nerds to demolish all the 'evidence' they were waving around? Minutes. Yet they thought everyone was going to fall for their garbage.

This is another good point:

Before the corpses had even gotten to the morgue, the West leaders were trying to milk all the new-sanctions momentum they possibly could from the tragedy. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, how many of these same people were bashing Kiev for its not having made a single arrest or issued a preliminary report on the Maidan killings?

Indeed, why no outrage about that? Why no outrage about the poor people burned alive in Odessa, the pregnant woman who was strangled by Kiev's thugs, the civilians who are being slaughtered by Kiev's bombs and artillery every single day?

It requires a great degree of arrogance to think that all the people can be fooled.   

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-24/ukraine-coalition-government-collapses-as-2-parties-quit.html

Ukraine Coalition Government Collapses as 2 Parties Quit
By Daria Marchak Jul 24, 2014 8:24 AM GMT 19 Comments Email Print

Ukraine’s coalition collapsed after two parties quit during a months-long pro-Russian insurgency in the nation’s east that downed a Malaysian Air jet last week.

The UDAR and Svoboda parties said they’d leave the government and seek a snap parliamentary ballot, according to statements today on their websites. Under the constitution, the former Soviet republic has 30 days to form a new coalition or it must call early elections. The existing cabinet will remain in place in the meantime.

Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk’s government, took over the country in February after pro-European street protests prompted Kremlin-backed President Viktor Yanukovych to flee to Russia. Yanukovych’s successor, billionaire Petro Poroshenko, had pledged to call parliamentary elections this year.

“We will probably have snap parliamentary elections at the end of October,” Yuriy Yakymenko, the head of political research at the Razumkov Center, said by phone from Kiev today. “This option was probably agreed on by political parties seeking elections and the president.”

The government and the current parliament will keep working until new institutions are formed, he said. Olga Lappo, Yatsenyuk’s spokeswoman, declined to comment when reached by phone today.

Yields on Ukrainian government bonds due 2023 rose to 8.31 percent as of 1 p.m. from 8.221 percent yesterday, data compiled by Bloomberg show. Ukraine’s hryvnia declined to 11.75 per dollar, compared with 11.68 yesterday.

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'Collapse' is a polite way of putting it. They were yet again brawling in the chamber:

http://www.netnewsledger.com/2014/07/23/brawl-in-ukraine-parliament-erupts/

[video]

over the latest call-up, amongst other things.

CNN:

Ukrainian cabinet, which includes Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, has resigned, he said.

Give it three months and Ukraine will be a completely failed state, no government, no electricity or heat, nothing. And in that well-known phrase, WINTER IS COMING.

The Kiev government has indeed collapsed:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/ukrainian-prime-minister-yatsenyuk-to-resign/?intcmp=latestnews

Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatsenyuk resigning

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk has announced his resignation, Fox News confirms.

Yatsenyuk made the announcement from the dais of Parliament after two parties said they would pull out of the governing coalition.

"I am announcing my resignation in connect with the collapse of the coalition," Yatsenyuk said. He said Parliament could no longer do its work and pass necessary laws.

The nationalist Svoboda party and the Udar party led by former boxer Vitali Klitschko pulled out of the group of legislators that took over after former President Viktor Yanukovich was ousted by protesters seeking closer ties with the European Union.

Parliament speaker Oleksandr Turchynov said it was up to Udar and Svoboda to propose a candidate for temporary prime minister to lead the government until early parliamentary elections can be held.

I can't help feeling that behind all this, may be the truth about who really shot down MH17, there have been persistent unverifiable internet rumours that rivalry between various factions, especially the Tymoshenko woman, played a role in it.

And now, the government's collapsed.

They don't call him 'Kiss of Death' Kerry for nothing.