British soldier killed in Woolwich horror

I know it goes against the grain, but I am beginning to come round to the idea that maybe arming the UK plods should be considered. I also think that water canons should be used, and too bad if people rioting get hurt in the process. Most of them will give up once they have felt the force of that water; I was once on the wrong end of a water canon in Berlin when I was a young man. It bl**dy hurts and you have bruises for days afterwards. n some countries they put gravel or tiny pebbles in with the water, not really necessary unless it is a huge and totally out of control situation. LL

I don't know what the answer is, LL. I said this at the start - there's a vacuum at the top of UK politics. Most of it between Cameron's ears; I really do think he's the worst PM Britain has ever had. Boris, Theresa May and John, now Lord, Reid, all managed to look more like the PM than he did when news of this atrocity first broke.

I hope I am wrong, but I have a bad feeling that the vacuum, south of the border, is going to be filled by some hellish combination of hard-Right Tories, UKIP, and the EDL.

I don't understand why they won't arm British Policemen. What is this supposed to convey? "Oh, look how peaceful and non aggressive we are. Fire away, scumbags, so long as we don't interfere with your Yuman Rites to kill people."

Those two could have killed dozens of people by the time Armed Response arrived.

Sabot wrote:I don't understand why they won't arm British Policemen. What is this supposed to convey? "Oh, look how peaceful and non aggressive we are. Fire away, scumbags, so long as we don't interfere with your Yuman Rites to kill people."

Those two could have killed dozens of people by the time Armed Response arrived.

The police in Austria and other countries are armed and they don't seem to have a problem with it. The Austrian police are ordered to disable, and to only take lethal action if there is no alternative. I looked up why no guns, this is from Wikipedia:

In Northern Ireland, all police officers carry firearms. In the rest of the United Kingdom, police officers do not carry firearms, except in special circumstances. This originates from the formation of the Metropolitan Police Service in the 19th century, when police were not armed, partly to counter public fears and objections over armed enforcers as this had been previously seen due to the British Army maintaining order when needed.

Perhaps it is time to review this? LL

It's not even a big thing in other countries, LL. No one even talks about it.
And even Amaral had a gun. Although I might have thought twice about him.

Sabot wrote:
It's not even a big thing in other countries, LL. No one even talks about it.
And even Amaral had a gun. Although I might have thought twice about him.

Most countries have a policy to disable first and only go the full hog in there is no other course. But there are a few where the order is to shoot and worry about it later. I would not like the UK to go down that path, but I do think the plods have a right to defend themselves. They don't even use their batons like other cops do - the Swedish police have been whipping the living daylights out of the rioters in the last few days. LL

Of course The Police should attempt to disable first, which The Woolwich Armed Response Team seem to have done, as neither of the buggers appear to be dead.
But accidents happen. Tough. Criminals shouldn't have guns in the first place.

Look at this - concerning the woman who was mauled to death by a tiger:

http://news.sky.com/story/1095396/female-zoo-worker-killed-in-tiger-attack

We immediately broke out firearms - the animal manager broke out firearms - and within two minutes we had firearms on scene.

So, zoo staff can get THEIR firearms in a couple of minutes....

bb1 wrote:Look at this - concerning the woman who was mauled to death by a tiger:

http://news.sky.com/story/1095396/female-zoo-worker-killed-in-tiger-attack

We immediately broke out firearms - the animal manager broke out firearms - and within two minutes we had firearms on scene.

So, zoo staff can get THEIR firearms in a couple of minutes....

All zoos have firearms, with many dangerous animals around, it is the law. LL

Well, well. There are a few dangerous animals out and about on the streets.

Twenty effing minutes? That has really shocked me. Imagine what someone could do with an automatic weapon?
And don't tell me that there aren't any in UK because I won't believe it.

I do believe that all Policemen should be able to hit targets, but that only requires practice. I was taught to hit a target by Her Majesty's Armed Forces many years ago. It ain't difficult.
Do you know, I had forgotten that.

If they have the same rules today, there is a strict protocol. The station sergeant has to unlock the cupboards, then the PC has to sign for the gun, count the ammunition and go through other requirements. They cannot just grab a firearm and run. As they were in a group, it would probably take about 10 minutes to do all that, and then they would be ready to leave. Depending on which station they are at, and I think it might have been Lewisham, then there was still the drive there, along some very busy roads - this is the route for the big lorries to take to the coast; even with sirens blaring the other traffic does have to get out of their way. I understand there were plods there, but they had obviously been told to keep well back as they were unarmed and at that time nobody knew exactly what weapons these men were carrying. If they were stationed at Greenwich then there would be a shorter travel distance. There are many stations in the area that were their home base, Plumstead being another one. Not making excuses, but I do think one has to give a little leeway here. LL

IMO, the problem is arising because the police are not being seen to be truthful, LL.

The whole incident was caught on many cameras; people could see for themselves that the police were NOT protecting the public - the public were inside the supposed police cordon with the killers.

It shouldn't have been up to a mum and daughter, and a Cub mistress, to try to reason with two men who have just slaughtered someone and are still waving cleavers and knives. It sent a very bad message, whatever happened once the unarmed police got there.

I know nothing about the unarmed plods, I was just showing why it would have taken some time for the response squad to get there. I know that area very well, we lived in Blackheath for over 4 years. I also know about the handing out of firearms as my second son trained at Hendon and was an armed response copper in Central London for about ten years. I understand the unarmed plods were there quite quickly but were ordered to stay back. We don't really know the ins and outs of what happened; what I find more worrying is that MI5 may be involved; of course the man on TV last night could be making this up. The problem of course with these radicalised men is that until they do something all you can do is watch them, and walking in a protest waving a banner is no reason to arrest them. It's a very tangled web I am afraid. So glad I moved out of London. LL

There appears to have been a copycat in Paris...

http://news.sky.com/story/1095605/french-soldier-stabbed-in-neck-in-paris

A French soldier on patrol in Paris has been stabbed in the neck by a man believed to be of North-African origin.

The soldier was injured during the attack but will survive, according to a police source who spoke to the Reuters news agency.

French daily Le Parisien cited police sources as saying the suspected attacker was a bearded man, about 30-years-old and was wearing an Arab-style garment under his jacket.

He fled the scene and is being sought by police.

More follows...

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I am sure the gendarmes will take a robust attitude to his yuman rites....

Great, LL. So twenty minutes was good, was it? The Armed Response Team don't even have an immediate weapon in their possession? While Gendarmes walk about every day with a gun on their hip. And hopefully loaded.

This tells Terrorists that they have got twenty minutes to cause real mayhem.

Sabot wrote:Great, LL. So twenty minutes was good, was it? The Armed Response Team don't even have an immediate weapon in their possession? While Gendarmes walk about every day with a gun on their hip. And hopefully loaded.

This tells Terrorists that they have got twenty minutes to cause real mayhem.

Everyone in the world knows UK cops don't carry guns. It was okay when the world was less crazy but I would sign a petition for them to carry guns at all times. The problem is that people mention guns and everyone in the UK immediately thinks of the US and those police series where someone gets shot every ten minutes and that is why so many people are against guns being on a copper's hip. I don't even notice that the police here and in Vienna carry guns, it has always been like that. LL

Lamplighter wrote:

Sabot wrote:Great, LL. So twenty minutes was good, was it? The Armed Response Team don't even have an immediate weapon in their possession? While Gendarmes walk about every day with a gun on their hip. And hopefully loaded.

This tells Terrorists that they have got twenty minutes to cause real mayhem.

Everyone in the world knows UK cops don't carry guns. It was okay when the world was less crazy but I would sign a petition for them to carry guns at all times. The problem is that people mention guns and everyone in the UK immediately thinks of the US and those police series where someone gets shot every ten minutes and that is why so many people are against guns being on a copper's hip. I don't even notice that the police here and in Vienna carry guns, it has always been like that. LL

But no one gets shot every ten minutes in France, or where you live, LL. So why is it such a problem in UK?
Lots of us bog off to other countries where this is normal, and none of us throw a fit. Sheesh, last week I got stopped and breathalized by a boy who can't have been more than 20 years old, with a gun on his hip, and I didn't think he was going to shoot me. Even if I had taken off at a fast rate of knots. He would have just shot one of my tyres. And scored a hit.

I just don't see how a Police Force can police the streets of any city these days without adequate means.
And I actually believe that they might feel better able to be circumspect if they feel better protected.

I don't know, ma petite. I have always been easy with cops wearing guns, never felt uncomfortable, but I do know most of my UK friends would be aghast at the idea of a PC Plod with a shooter. LL

Lamplighter wrote:I don't know, ma petite. I have always been easy with cops wearing guns, never felt uncomfortable, but I do know most of my UK friends would be aghast at the idea of a PC Plod with a shooter. LL

Then your friends and mine must be crackers, LL. What do they think Britain is these days? Some sort of isolated paradise?
I left 20 years ago because I couldn't cope with it any more. It was bad then, and has only got worse.
Have it, is all I can say.

This isn't good:

There was an incident at Salford Royal hospital last night where a nurse was held hostage for a short while by a loon with a gun.

There was a policelady in the hospital recovering from surgery who was tweeting about it. She said the NURSES on the ward threw down what they were doing and went to see what they could do.

No risk assesments filled in, no wearing of hi-viz vests.

Then I remembered watching the POLICEMEN standing round with their arms folded when the London riots were taking place.

Kinda sums up what a mess we are in in this country.

Having a bit of a punch up with some prick on Anna Raccoon who thinks that women can't shoot straight.
I can't actually be bothered to explain that it isn't that difficult to learn how.

Then I remembered watching the POLICEMEN standing round with their arms folded when the London riots were taking place.

I've never forgotten that, it was shameful, and once again, civilians ended up having to defend themselves and their own property.

But last week, no fewer than THREE policemen found the time to warn an elderly lady not to make any giant cheeses for the local cheese-rolling contest which had been banned for elf'n'safety reasons. Oh, and some other police hassled a child who drew hopscotch signs on the pavement...

Just tell him he's clearly scared of women with guns, Sabot. I've never used anything more lethal than an air pistol, but there was nothing wrong with my aim, either.

This lady seems quite at ease with her rather large firearm...

It is so insulting you see. There is no difference between the ability of a man or a woman to shoot straight.
In fact, my best loved Chief Wren won at Bisley more times than even I had hot dinners. And such a self effacing person she was. I don't know if she was a Natural. But she would have done it anyway. That is the sort of person that she was. And why we all loved her. Us silly bunch of Wrens that she took such care of.

Well, he can't do so much damage from Ibiza...it would serve him right if he came back to find Boris had staged a coup in his absence.