Re: Breaking News!!!! Richard III's Body Found!

**bb1** Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:11 pm

The Yorkie loons are like the numty loons, Lily, and just about any of the other internet loon groups - they have NO insight whatsoever into how other people actually see them, and regard headlines about their cringe-making stunts as good.

One of their more recent stunts was writing to every single MP - and anyone else they could think of - about their grievances and telling the unfortunate recipients True Facts. Naturally, it had about as much impact as numty stunts....

The DS thread:

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1795011&page=211

Is Leicester really a fitting resting place for Richard III?

is now on page 211.....

**Lamplighter** Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:00 pm

This comment on DS is very good and says it all. LL

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Forum Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26

I love arguments based on convenience,

So we listen to the wishes of relatives if they back our opinion (and clearly we need an xfactor style vote to balance the millions of possible relatives) but not those that don't e.g Ibsen or most importantly Elizabeth of York (who was alive at the time but whose views must be discredited).

We read the parts of the jr review that allow us to continue arguing but ignore all the parts that dispel many of our arguments (I have read the whole thing after links posted on here).

We make inferences about Richard iii's view on building a chantry that are convenient to us but ignore the fact that he built many.

We chastise henry vii and the Tudors for using propaganda to discredit richard iii then promote people who have never been to the visitor centre to write reviews based on 'the literature' they have read! (Oh the irony).

We claim to be speaking for the public (but then conveniently dismiss the validity of the petitions once lauded), we speak from a legal view point (then dismiss the credibility of the legal arguments) (on a side note has anyone from the alliance spoken to Gordon's about imo the use of Richard iii's name to provide them international publicity- you must be fuming!). We now claim to be speaking for richardians.

We talk about 'doing what is right' without any balance and refusing to consider the views of both richard iii and henry vii in balance, instead trying to paint our own romantic version of what we would have liked history to have been.

We then shout about how large our support is, how much bigger it is than Leicester's (although the evidence of the petitions suggests this is wrong) and argue with everyone who disagrees by re-presenting illogical and previously disproved points (ie the chantry, the Elizabeth if York family argument etc) over and over again.

While I admire passion, I cherish balanced, logical discussion. Not what appears to be increasingly emotive and self serving personal indulgence. The trashing of anything to do with leicester is wrong and your campaign needs to have some stronger points to argue imo.

**lily** Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:55 pm

Page 211? I imagine it's gone up since you made your post, Bonny. biggrin

What on earth has happened to the so called civilized Western world? Numpties, whatever they protest or support, are an embarrassment to that ideal.

LL, that is a better post on the subject matter. thumbsup

**bb1** Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:55 pm

There are some very good posts on that thread, LL. There is also some hysterical nonsense from the Yorkies....they're very bitter.

Will you be attending the re-interment next year?

**Lamplighter** Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:58 pm

bb1 wrote:There are some very good posts on that thread, LL. There is also some hysterical nonsense from the Yorkies....they're very bitter.

Will you be attending the re-interment next year?

I have no plans so far. I do have friends who will be there, however. LL

**lily** Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:07 pm

Wow, it will be fantastic.

**bb1** Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:13 pm

It'll maybe be one of these occasions when you get a better view on TV - without the walking around, etc.

**lily** Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:43 pm

That's true, Bonny.

**bb1** Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:34 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/11018416/Richard-III-to-have-effective-state-funeral.html

Richard III to have 'effective state funeral'
More than 500 years after his death Richard III will receive an 'effective state funeral' when he is reinterred at Leicester Cathedral

By Claire Carter12:02PM BST 07 Aug 2014
King Richard III will lie in repose for three days and have a cortege in an effective state funeral more than 500 years after his death.
The reinterment, which will take place at Leicester Cathedral, has been announced two years after the King’s remains were found beneath a car park – making him the only English monarch without a marked grave.

The ceremony will see his remains transferred into a lead lined coffin which will travel from Leicester to Bosworth before he is laid to rest, at a cost of £2.5 million.
The route has not yet been confirmed, but will take in several villages related to his last days. These could include Donington le Heath and Barwell.

Officials at the cathedral said the ceremony will not be classed as an official state funeral, but will be very similar, and the reinterment ceremony will be broadcast on Channel 4.
The Cathedral will receive the monarch’s remains on March 22, 2015 and he will then lie in repose for three days. He will then be reburied during a ceremony on March 26.
The Rt Revd Tim Stevens, the Bishop of Leicester, said: “Our cathedral has been consistently committed to providing a fitting, dignified and memorable ceremony for the reinterment of King Richard. We can now see how this works out in detail and our city and county look forward to all the events of next spring.”
So far almost £1 million has been raised to cover the cost of the interment and the Cathedral is hoping to raise all the funds in the next eight months.
The reinterment comes after a lengthy battle between the Planagenet Alliance, set up by descendants of the family of Richard III who wanted him to be reinterred in York Minster, and Leicester Cathedral and University – which led the archaeological dig.
Judges at the High Court ruled earlier this year that Richard III should be reinterred in Leicester.

**Lamplighter** Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:49 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/10904000/Richard-III-legal-challenge-lands-taxpayer-with-175000-legal-bill.html

EPA/REUTERS
By David Barrett, Home Affairs Correspondent
16 Jun 2014

The taxpayer has been hit with a bill of more than £175,000 after campaigners launched a legal challenge over the reburial of King Richard III’s remains.

Chris Grayling, the Justice Secretary, revealed a group calling itself the Plantagenet Alliance set up a “front” company, with just one director and no assets, to avoid being hit with legal costs.

It means that the public purse will have to foot a hefty bill for the Government’s decision to defend a judicial review in the High Court.

The alliance was challenging a decision to re-bury the king’s remains in Leicester, where they were discovered underneath a council car park in 2012, 527 years after his death at the Battle of Bosworth.

Campaigners argued the bones should instead be returned to York, the seat of the Yorkist kings.

Mr Grayling criticised the campaign group – whose members claim to be descendants of Richard III – for landing the taxpayer with the “ridiculous” expenses for a “non-sensical” case.

He added that the challenge provided further evidence of the need for reforms which will restrict the scope of judicial reviews and require applicants to reveal their funding sources.

It emerged that the Plantagenet Alliance was registered last year with just a sole director, Stephen Nicolay, 47, who claims to be the 16th great-grandson of Richard Plantagenet, the 3rd Duke of York, and the father of Richard III.

Mr Grayling said: “This nonsensical case is a perfect example of how the system of judicial review is being misused – and at ridiculous expense to taxpayers.

“Judicial review is, and must remain, an important way to hold authorities to account but we have to do something to stop challenges like this exploiting the system.”

The Ministry of Justice’s legal costs for contesting the case were £90,000 and it also cost Leicester City Council, which was also involved, a further £85,000.

Additionally, there was the expense of a three-day court hearing which is likely to have pushed the total bill for the taxpayer over £200,000.

A Ministry of Justice spokesman said the Secretary of State had taken the unusual step of revealing the total costs because he believed the Government’s “emphatic” victory in court showed the rules needed to be updated.

He also criticised the campaigners’ “tenuous” claims that they were related to the king, whose skeleton showed part of the skull had been sliced off with a bladed weapon.

A facial reconstruction of Richard III based on the skull discovered underneath a Leicester council car park in 2012

Scientific tests comparing DNA from the remains with that of living descendants of Anne of York, Richard’s elder sister, showed beyond reasonable doubt that the Leicester skeleton was that of the king.

Nine descendants of Richard III, including Mr Nicolay, issued a statement in February last year which said: “The Plantagenet Alliance does hereby most respectfully demand that the remains of King Richard III, the last Plantagenet King of England and our mutual, collateral ancestor, be returned to the City of York for ceremonial re-burial.

“We believe that such an interment was the desire of King Richard in life and we have written
this statement so that his inferred wishes may be fully recognised.”

Matthew Howarth, solicitor for the Plantagenet Alliance, said: “Although Mr Grayling might not like it, unfortunately for him the court considered the application was appropriate for a hearing.

“The only person who has spent too much taxpayers’ money is Mr Grayling, who by my reckoning used four different barristers in the case including a top QC.

“He could have avoided spending so much by using fewer counsel and agreeing to a recommendation by the judge that the matter should be considered by a committee, but Mr Grayling refused to comply.”

The use of a front company was a “non-point”, he added.

Mr Grayling’s reforms of judicial review, due to be debated in Parliament this week will change existing rules so applicants in judicial review cases must disclose their funding sources.

The Plantagenet Alliance won a “protective costs order” or “PCO” which meant they would not be liable for the Government’s legal bill.

Under the reforms, the Government has said the process of applying for a PCO should be “more robust” and it “should be mandatory for the claimant to provide details of who is funding the case and a statement of assets”.

**bb1** Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:14 pm

Mr Grayling criticised the campaign group – whose members claim to be descendants of Richard III – for landing the taxpayer with the “ridiculous” expenses for a “non-sensical” case.

I'm awed that he managed to comment on the Yorkies without using the word 'lunatics', LL.

The complete waste of public money is bad enough, but the Yorkies gave the government the perfect excuse to clamp down on legal aid for more deserving causes.

**Lamplighter** Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:58 pm

Sunday 17 August Channel 4 - Richard lll, the new evidence. Time given as 2100 which I think is UK, 2200 CET. Also same day on More 4 at 2200 UK, 2300 CET. If possible can someone confirm the times please. Thanks. LL

**bb1** Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:25 pm

Just checked with my Planner, it's first showing on C4, 9pm UK time, next Sunday, LL.

**bb1** Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:35 pm

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/richard-iii-the-new-evidence/videos/all/becoming-richard-iii

A trailer, interviewing the young man who is playing Richard. It looks absolutely fascinating, though it kept stopping and starting on me, but I may have a bad connection.

I'd love to know what the neighbours thought....

**Lamplighter** Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:31 am

Don't forget the Channel 4 program tonight on Richard. LL

**bb1** Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:46 am

Certainly not, LL! My Skybox is set to record, and I will be giving my Robert Bruce genuine imitation broadsword a good old shine-up, in the hope of handy hints for defeating The Foe. biggrin

**bb1** Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:49 am

What on earth...

http://news.sky.com/story/1319989/pressures-made-richard-iii-hit-the-booze

Richard III may have struggled with the pressures of being king, polishing off a bottle of wine a day, according to researchers.

Tests on the medieval monarch's bones and teeth show his drinking habits changed dramatically when he became king in 1483.

King Richard's skeleton was found under a Leicester car park in 2012.

Experts believe he put a heavy toll on his body during the last three years of his life by feasting on exotic meats such as crane and heron, washed down with copious amounts of wine.

"Richard's diet when he was king was far richer than that of other equivalent high status individuals in the late medieval period," said Dr Angela Lamb, one of the experts who analysed his bones for a new Channel Four documentary.

"We know he was banqueting a lot more, there was a lot of wine indicated at those banquets and tying all that together with the bone chemistry it looks like this feasting had quite an impact on his body in the last few years of his life."

Dr Lamb said the study of Richard's remains showed up "fascinating changes in his geographical movements, diet and social status throughout his life".

His curved spine would also not have stopped him wearing armour, and even riding a horse onto the battlefield, according to the team from the British Geological Survey and University of Leicester.

They used a body double with the same 75-degree curvature to show the monarch could still have wielded longswords, lances and axes.

The double was kitted out in a 30kg suit of armour, with programme makers staging a cavalry charge to demonstrate their point.

Richard III, the last of the Plantagenet dynasty, was killed at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485 after just two years on the throne.

He was the last English king to die in battle.

Distant relatives of the king wanted him re-buried in York, but earlier this month it was decided he would be laid to rest in Leicester Cathedral.

A service will take place at the cathedral on March 26 after a week of events in Leicestershire.

But everyone drank, continually, in those days, because the water was so foul....ah well, best to wait and see.

**Lamplighter** Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:27 am

Most people, even the poor, brewed beer and also made and drank wine in the 15th century - as you say the water was rank! As for exotic foods, crane and heron, along with swan were normal fare for the nobility. I suppose to Dr Lamb, anything over a Big Mac or suchlike is 'exotic'. Although E4 was known to be a heavy drinker and his brother Clarence supposed drowned in a butt of malmsey - a myth - I have never seen anywhere comments that Richard was a heavy drinker. I wonder if this Dr Lamb is perhaps a secret Plantaganet Alliance supporter? LL

**bb1** Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:38 am

I doubt it, or he wouldn't have made such a peculiar statement, implying Richard was a bit of an alkie....I must have a look at their pages.

I confess, I get really annoyed when people try to impose 21st century habits on earlier periods. Swans and herons aren't actually 'exotic', they just aren't regarded as 'food' by most of us now.

**bb1** Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:44 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/11030692/Recreating-Richard-III-Channel-4s-New-Evidence.html

Recreating Richard III: Channel 4's "New Evidence"
Florence Waters takes a look at Channel 4's documentary, Richard III: the New Evidence.

Dominic Smee has the same spinal deformity as King Richard III

Last February when a Channel 4 documentary announced the news that bones unearthed in a Leicester car park belonged to Richard III, 26-year-old Dominic Smee was at home watching the programme with his parents in Tamworth, Staffordshire.
He was amazed as scientists in the film pieced together a pretty accurate reconstruction of the king’s crooked spine, disproving theories that the crippled king immortalised by Shakespeare was a myth of Tudor propaganda.
Smee, an unemployed IT teacher, was startled by the resemblance to the curvature in his own back. “I had this feeling,” he says. “The hairs stood up on the back of my neck.”
As it turned out, Smee, who provides historians with crucial missing pieces to the Richard III puzzle in Channel 4’s latest film about the last Plantagenet ruler, has an uncannily similar deformity of the spine to the king. It’s caused by the same rare form of adolescent-onset scoliosis that Richard was thought to have, with the angle of the curve around 70 degrees to the right hand side, and the S-shaped curvature of the ribs too. “He’s almost identical!” one stunned scientist exclaims in the documentary.
Since the discovery of Richard’s bones, historians have puzzled over historical accounts of the last Plantagenet’s heroics, not least at the Battle of Bosworth where he’s said to have led a cavalry charge against Henry Tudor (the future Henry VII) and fallen to a savage battlefield death. Polydore Vergil, Henry VII’s official historian, recorded that: “King Richard, alone, was killed fighting manfully in the thickest press of his enemies.” To modern historians the stories sounded improbable for a man with such a handicap.

Since the discovery, medieval armour expert Dr Tobias Capwell has been speculating whether it would have even been possible to construct the necessary armour for such a severe anatomical deformity without throwing the weight of the battle dress completely off balance.
Luckily for Capwell, Smee was curious enough to attend his lecture on the subject. “There was a lot of conjecture, but when he said, ‘Well, Richard is not here so we’ll never know,’ I thought for some crazy reason I’d get in touch.” Capwell was amazed. “It’s extraordinarily rare to find someone with the exact kind of scoliosis as Richard III because the vast majority of people that have it in that way have surgery to correct it,” Capwell says. (Aged 13, Smee had opted out of surgery because of increased risk due to another health condition.)
Smee agreed to train for four months to take part in a series of experiments with a group of historians as Richard’s body-double. Many a young lad may have dreamed of becoming a knight in shining armour, but Smee was particularly blown over by this opportunity. Strangely, he and Richard III are old acquaintances. For much of his adolescent years Smee remembers his mother, Christina Smee, researching a book about Richard III. “She didn’t know why – she just started researching him. For seven years he was in the house constantly.” Such was the household obsession with Richard, Smee’s friends joked he was the reincarnation of him.
Later he also became involved with a re-enactment group at the Battle of Bosworth, and since his mid-20s he’s been helping re-create scenes at the sight of the bloody showdown between Henry and Richard.

But he’d never ridden a horse or taken part in physically demanding battle-scenes. Having given up sporting activities in his teens, finding them “degrading and demoralising”, Smee was thrown into the deep end. Due to the shape of his spine, he can’t use his back strength and is forced to lift anything with the power of his arms alone. He also tires easily because of his tight rib cage. “Everything I was asked to do, from the weights to fighting on horseback, was out of my comfort zone.”
For the documentary Capwell and Smee made a trip to an armorist in Sweden. After a lot of careful engineering, they were stunned to discover that a suit of armour was not only possible – but also liberating. It gave Smee a greater sense of balance, and he was more at ease on his horse. “It’s not like being in a tin can,” says Smee of his tailored suit of steel. “You feel like a juggernaut. You can do anything. I wanted to see how flexible it was so I actually rode my bike around in the garden in the armour.”
Pleased with the progress, researchers decided to see if Smee was capable of reliving the extreme conditions of Richard’s death scene, as history tells it. He was asked to lead a charge into battle carrying a lance and take down several “men”. “When I actually made contact with the quintain – the mannequin used in jousting training - it’s like roller-coaster-ride levels of exhilaration. You’re half petrified but you’re really excited at the same time.
“When I hit this polystyrene head on a pole – spot on – and brains exploded out it was an incredible feeling.”

Smee describes the moment he came off his horse as surreal. “It was terrifying, but it was like I started to think about what Richard’s last memories would have been like. It was almost like I was looking at Richard.”
Smee has learned that both Richard and himself are fully capable of leading a cavalry charge, but his psychological insights are perhaps even more revealing. “It makes you want to achieve. If I can do it, why shouldn’t I do it? I can see why Richard said in one of his prayer diaries: thank you for making me the way you did.”

**bb1** Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:57 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-28825653

A study of the teeth and bones of Richard III show the king drank up to a bottle of wine a day in the last years of his life.

Is that all? From the tone of several pieces, the impression has been given that he was downing several gallons of brandy a day. I find myself irritated by 'scientists' who fail to grasp that alcohol was what EVERYONE drank.

The water was dirty, there was no tea, coffee or fruit juice, and certainly no Diet Coke.

A bottle of wine a day is fairly sparing by medieval standards.

**Lamplighter** Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:09 pm

Since E4 died in his early 40s of a mixture of over-eating and booze I reckon 1 bottle a day is quite reasinable. And this would have been pure wine, no residues from land tainted by chemicals, insecticides etc. LL

**bb1** Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:42 pm

This is a good piece:

Breaking News!!!! Richard III's Body Found! - Page 15 1408027879054_Image_galleryImage_Page_8_170216466_jpg

‘One of the things that surprised everyone was how fit I was, particularly in terms of range of movement. I could twist and bend more than they’d thought possible from the scans.’ Dominic insists there was an even greater personal revelation. ‘I went through my life thinking I was less of a man. But to get into that suit of armour and hold your own on the battlefield, well, it makes you think again. This man was a warrior, after all.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2724991/King-Richard-rides-In-fascinating-experiment-using-modern-day-double-scientists-shown-bunch-d-toad-Richard-III-unflinching-warrior-despite-deformity.html#ixzz3AfUna3pY
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

From what I could make out of that rather stuttering trailer, Dominic pre-armour was a rather shy young man, whose spinal problems were made more obvious by modern, untailored clothing.

He looks completely different in his new identity.

**Sabot** Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:20 pm

A bottle of wine a day? Bloody hell, is that all? I can do that if I feel like it. And still come out standing. It's the bottle of gin that floors me.

**Sabot** Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:22 pm

I thought that piece about Dominic Smee was lovely. What a difference that is going to make of his opinion of himself.

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