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Breaking News!!!! Richard III's Body Found!

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Post  lily Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:47 pm

Such was his stupid and hateful paranoia. He was so young when he went into the Tower.

Henry's mother was a piece of work too.
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Post  Sabot Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:30 am

bb1 wrote:I'm sure I recall LL saying there wasn't supposed to be another Richard, Duke of Gloucester, but the current Duke's older brother died in an accident?

It's fascinating how much general wierdness there is to do with Richard III; I read recently that it began just hours after his death.

Apparently, the Portuguese princess he was negotiating to marry was told in a dream that he was dead, long before news of Bosworth reached Portugal.  

My Theory is that he was so angry at the manner of his death, and what came after, that he hasn't actually Rested In Peace........

Yer, that is weird. Another Richard Duke of Gloucester just when his body has been found.
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Post  Sabot Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:34 am

lily wrote:I don't mean to take this thread off course, but look at the similarities between the late Prince William and the present one.  Shocked 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2057873/The-Prince-William-The-uncanny-parallels-Wills-dashing-doomed-cousin-memory-named.html

I think those two Richards look very much alike.
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Post  lily Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:02 pm

They do, Sabot. It's so interesting to see it.
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:20 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2590638/Skeleton-car-park-NOT-Richard-III-Experts-cast-doubts-accuracy-DNA-dating-results.html

Skeleton discovered under car park may NOT be Richard III: Experts cast doubt over accuracy of DNA and dating results


Oh, don't be so damned stupid! How many men with battle wounds and spinal problems, related to Cecily Neville, who turn out to be the double of portraits of Richard III, do they think are likely to have been buried in the exact spot Richard was buried in?

Oh wait, I know. Richard survived the battle. It's his Evil Twin who was buried in Greyfriars, having been one of H7's Evil Scurvy Knaves all along. And Good Richard saw Evil Twin get killed and thought, Bugger this monarching business for a game of soldiers, I'm off to Portugal to get married and grow olives.
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Post  Lamplighter Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:29 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19572103
Michael Hicks is a Lancastrian going by the above. LL
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:33 pm

Yup, I've just found this:

http://www.historytoday.com/author/michael-hicks

Henry VI: A Misjudged King?

Few English monarchs have such a poor reputation as Henry VI. Yet he was held in high regard by the Tudors, says Michael Hicks, despite losing the Wars of the Roses.


Right.....
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Post  Lamplighter Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:36 pm

And Martin Biddle is also a Tudorite. I see envy in all they write re the Richard finds. LL
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Post  lily Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:49 pm

Nice try but no tamale.  bottomsup 
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:01 pm

Agree, LL, I've just occupied myself reading reviews of some of his books.

Is it more than jealousy? Certain historians have carved profitable niches for themselves being 'Tudor experts', and now the whole Tudor orthodoxy is being challenged. But ask most English people what the Tudors actually did for England and about the most you'll get is mutterings about the Armada.

I can see the likes of Starkey going on real bitchfests once this nonsense over Richard's reburial is resolved, and it becomes a reality.

This is a nice photo:

Breaking News!!!! Richard III's Body Found! - Page 3 5929313-large

But the story it's telling is NOT what was supposed to happen. A member of the present royal family is honouring a king who was supposed to be wiped from history in disgrace 500 years ago, and wearing his symbol.

I suspect that if anyone knows what really happened in the 1480s, it's the royals. There may well be documents that will never see the light of day because they would be so embarrassing.

I also wonder if Gloriana realised there was something very wrong with the Tudors, by any standards? She certainly did the world a favour when she ended their line.

So yes, I think there's going to be an awful lot of impotent rage and jealousy from Tudorologists.
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:41 pm

Actually, Hicks hasn't really thought this through....

Because for his claims to have any substance, it would mean H7 displayed and buried the body of some other dark-haired bloke with a bad back. After all, if you were a Leicester yokel after Bosworth, you'd hardly point out to your new masters that they'd made a bit of a boo-boo, would you?
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Post  Lamplighter Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:18 pm

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk-LH-CpBjXNXswbGKajjKA/feed?view_as=public

This is a podcast of pieces by Matt Lewis. You need to scroll down to get the pods as they are not actually in any order. LL
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Post  Lamplighter Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:21 pm

Taken from the Richard lll Society webpage:
Sandra Heath Wilson's report from Gloucester, on Richard's head:
'Well, the Richard III: Duke of Gloucester exhibition is up and running in Gloucester City Museum, and I had the pleasure of being there last night at the preview evening. I dragged my husband Rob along too. The Town Crier was out in the street making his presence known, and the queue went all down Brunswick Road and around the corner to the entrance of the multi-storey car park. At a guess about 75 yards from museum entrance to the corner. It was icy cold on that corner, I can tell you. Why does a cold wind always have to get colder and windier on a corner? And when you reach that corner, the queue stops moving, of course.
Anyway, we were all admitted at last, and it was deliciously warm and bright inside. It was packed. Plenty of nibbles and drinks in the museum shop, lots of chatter and excitement. Like a particularly noisy cocktail party. All the bigwigs of the county present—sheriff, mayor, council leader etc., gold chains glittering—and plenty of Richard mementos on sale, books, mugs, trinkets, you know the sort of thing. No one of Ricardian note that I recognised, but I’m not the most observant when it comes to faces.
Then, finally, we were allowed up to the first floor and the exhibition itself. And as we entered the room, the first thing we saw was the Head. Everyone gravitated to it, and luckily it is very accessible. It stands on a pedestal about 5’ or so high, protected by a glass case. You can go all around it and be only about 12” away, so the detail is all there to see. The first thing I thought was how very much better it is to actually see, than it is in photographs. You see the slight hollowing of his cheeks, for instance, which I had not picked up on before. The second thing that struck me was how delicate he looked. With all the talk of gracile bones and so on, well, you can definitely say that his face (which has to be reasonably accurate if it has been created around an exact copy of his skull and chin) is fine-boned, graceful and arresting. But very strong too. Perhaps it is the angle of the head...or perhaps that we know for a fact that he was strong, and in armour on a horse could beat the living daylights out of any opponent. Haul yourself up again, Sir John Cheyne. The mere thought of Richard whamming such a fit, experienced giant from his saddle is astonishing. And Richard’s lance was already broken! He may have looked as if made of porcelain, but he was ironstone inside.
Another exhibit is a mock-up of Richard’s skeleton, looking more or less as it does in all the photos we’ve seen. It is so realistic that it’s difficult to remember it’s not the real thing. And as a consequence it is not an easy sight for a dedicated Ricardian. Very moving. And very unsettling. I did not linger long, I’m afraid. Much better to look at the original 1484 charter that Richard granted to Gloucester. It is a very beautiful thing, one could only marvel at the precision and regularity of the tiny, close-packed writing and the magnificence of the illustrations. The seal was suspended as well. There were other documents, including one of Henry VII, in which he confirms Richard’s charter. His seal was there too.
The walls displayed various bits and pieces, portraits, family trees, photographs of original documents, samples of handwriting, a constantly playing video of how the Head was made, and so on. The NPG portrait was there, and a modern likeness. There was also a lot about the movement of the opposing armies around Gloucester just before Tewkesbury in 1471. Gloucester closed its gates to Margaret of Anjou and her Lancastrians, forcing them to go on to Tewkesbury (only a few miles away) and the bloody confrontation. I didn’t see anything about the Severn keeping the faithless, cheating Duke of Buckingham on the wrong side of its banks, a fact that was much to Richard’s advantage in 1483. So the Severn is occasionally good for something when it floods. One of the ‘explanations’ concerning documents told that while Richard’s responses to the city were couched in the usual flowery tone of the time, there are exceptional statements here and there that suggest he really was fond of Gloucester. Gloucester (city and county) wants it to be so, of course. No, I can’t say what the exceptional terms were, because they weren’t pointed out in detail. At least, not that I saw.
Then the Town Crier’s bell rang out and he shouted an introduction to the speechifying. He was heard in that crowded room, you have my word on it. The speeches, from persons wearing or associated with the glittering collars, were all in favour of Richard, with whom Gloucester is justifiably proud to be associated. His twenty-two years as our duke cannot be ignored. Plus, of course, there were regrets that he will not lie at rest here. Well, it was always an outside hope, but many of us would have liked it. I’d like to steal him from under the noses of both Leicester and York.
I have to say that the number of people attending (100-150) and their enthusiasm was very pleasing. There was a mix of ages and about equal male and female. Young girls (teenagers) wanted their photograph taken beside him, and it was clear that the interest in him is very strong here in Gloucester. The exhibition goes on until 30th March, when it moves on to Sudeley Castle, which also has associations with Richard, not least because he once owned it. He also stayed there before Tewkesbury.
So, that was my experience last night. We left before the end, because there are only so many times you can walk around and jostle through a scrum to see everything. But it was worth it, and I came home feeling even closer to Richard than I had been before. My husband remains bemused that a king who died over 500 years ago can still arouse such passions in this modern age. But that’s Richard. He doesn’t relinquish his hold...as we all know so well. Well, Rob should know that by now!'
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:53 pm

Thanks, LL, I've just listened to the 'coup' podcast. That's a great effort at disentangling it all, and makes sense. Maybe it's me, but I can't see why executing four troublesome nobles is still used as a stick to beat Richard with. His successors did ten times worse and if he did did anything wrong, it was not executing enough of them. H8 would have had Margaret Beaufort killed without a second's thought.

I'll listen to the rest later, and I must say, the speaker has a pleasant voice, very easy on the ears. I like the artwork..

Breaking News!!!! Richard III's Body Found! - Page 3 Rich3a10
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:57 pm

PS - I've come to the conclusion that either Hicks is an idiot, or he's sh*t-stirring out of spite.

Only an idiot would think that H7 would bury the wrong person, and then pay out money for a headstone. Because if he thinks that someone other than Richard III was found in the place where Richard III is known to have been buried, then H7 made the foul-up to end all foul-ups, didn't he?
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Post  Lamplighter Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:58 pm

The irony is that Richard gets pilloried for executing treasonable nobles, but no-one ever condemns Henry V for doing exactly the same thing at Southampton to the nobles that tried to assassinate him just before he embarked for France and the glory of Azincourt. LL
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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:11 pm

Well, in 1452, James II personally stabbed Lord Douglas to death and threw him out the window of Stirling Castle. No-one really held that against him (apart from the Douglasses) and he was regarded as one of our more successful kings, and was pretty popular.

I suspect many of the wilder allegations about Richard are caused by what we've come to know as 'projection'. H7 really did murder young people in the Tower; H8 murdered young and old, smearing unwanted wives with accusations of incest along the way.
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Post  Lamplighter Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:02 pm

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Post  bb1 Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:23 pm

So, that's where this nonsense has sprung from? I gather Hicks is supposed to be a serious historian; I can only assume he grew tired of being regarded as such, to concoct such utter rubbish.

Did he give a moment's thought to how utterly ILLOGICAL this rubbish is? Or did the desire to get publicity overtake any semblance of sense?

There is only one possible explanation for someone who looks like Richard III, has Richard's DNA, battle wounds and back problem being found in the spot Richard was buried in.

It's Richard III. Unless Hicks thinks he had an Evil Twin and H7 buried the wrong one.

I am genuinely gobsmacked that a supposedly respected historian could invent such utter bollox.
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Post  Lamplighter Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:04 am

Another find, this time an apparent fence-sitter.   LL
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/04/opinion/jones-richard-third/

The above is amended as I had not had time to read the whole article. Obviously a Tudor fan and also not much of a historian. LL


Last edited by Lamplighter on Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post  bb1 Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:26 am

'Spindly and warped'? They're very bitter, aren't they?  rofl  rofl  rofl 

I've noticed something, LL. The anti-Richards, for want of a better expression, tend to be poor historians:

he remains a criminal king whose actions wrought havoc on his realm.

No, that was the next lot.

But this does not mitigate that he stole the crown, justifying it after the fact with the claim that his nephews were illegitimate. Likewise, it remains indisputably true that his usurpation threw English politics, painstakingly restored to some order in the 12 years before his crime, into a turmoil from which it did not fully recover for another two decades.

That is actually factually WRONG, which is why Jones is yet another bad, biased historian with a book to sell.

Somewhere in yesterday's Mail comments I read that the Hicks person also has a book out. And from the comments here:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Skeleton-Leicester-car-park-king/story-20873589-detail/story.html

he seems to be having a bit of a tanty because King Alfred's hipjoint may not be.

He can certainly kiss his reputation goodbye after this one. Did he stop to think how idiotic his jealous mudslinging was before he mouthed off?
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Post  bb1 Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:12 pm

The above is amended as I had not had time to read the whole article. Obviously a Tudor fan and also not much of a historian. LL

It's a bizarre phenomena, LL. If you're ever bored, have a read of the reviews of anti-Richard books. Time and again, the writers are caught making errors of fact and chronology.

I can only assume they got away with it for so long, and the Official Tudor Version so set in stone, because pre-internet it was quite hard to unravel it all. It tended to be quite a specialised field, with arguments mainly confined to academia.

Now, when they come out with a 'history' that's about as fair and balanced - and accurate - as Fox News, the error of their ways is pointed out to them very quickly and publicly. And the arguments are all over the tabloids and FB - it's not elitist any more.

A lot of them have based lucrative careers on Spindly Warped Richard killed his nephews and stole the throne and are not taking kindly to having their noses rubbed in reality and proper research.
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Post  Lamplighter Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:47 pm

It's a bizarre phenomena, LL. If you're ever bored, have a read of the reviews of anti-Richard books. Time and again, the writers are caught making errors of fact and chronology.
I have read all the reviews of pro and anti Yorkist kings, especially Richard - I became a Ricardian after reading Daughter of Time when I was about 10 and I have grown a suit of Milan steel over some of the ridiculous anti claims!!  LL
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Post  bb1 Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:57 pm

I am actually still laughing about the spindly and warped - it sounds more like a stalk of rather unsightly asparagus than a person.

Starkey must be about due to spit his dummy any time now; he's been unusually restrained.
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Post  bb1 Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:20 pm

Bit of a ding-dong going on here, LL, on the original article:

http://www.historyextra.com/news/was-skeleton-found-leicester-car-park-really-richard-iii

I am fascinated to see that one of the anti-Richards thinks that Burgundy was in the south of France....bizarre.

And that Hicks apparently thinks it was 'confirmed' that those bones in the urn are the missing not-princes. I personally think they're probably a couple of young potboys that died of the plague long before.

I can understand now why the Queen doesn't give permission for any of her rellies to be dug up and tested, it would be a real can of worms.

It could well turn out that the only monarch who can be reliably identified is in fact Richard, but God knows who fathered some of the others.

Edward IV some passing archer's son; Gloriana not H8's; James VI half-Italian......
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