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mega cruise liner sinks

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Post  Lamplighter on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:16 pm

Just seen something on TV where Lloyds, the shipping people, have produced a graph which shows this has happened before, ie the boat was taken in close to the island. Foud it, see below:

'Near miss'
Meanwhile, satellite tracking information given to the BBC by the shipping journal, Lloyd's List Intelligence, shows that the Costa Concordia sailed closer to Giglio island on a cruise last August than it did on its disastrous voyage on Friday.
Lloyd's List told the BBC that the vessel passed within 230m of the island on 14 August 2011 to mark La Notte di San Lorenzo - the night of the shooting stars festival on the island.
The route deviation on that occasion had been authorised by Costa Cruises - the company which owns the vessel.
The company said on Monday that the ship was never closer than 500m to the coast when it passed on 14 August.

Lloyd's List describes that occasion as a "near miss" and says the ship's route would have been less than 200m away from the point of collision on Friday's voyage.
Costa Cruises said on Monday that the route deviation last Friday had been "unauthorised, unapproved and unknown to Costa".
But Richard Meade, the editor of Lloyd's List, said: "The company's account of what happened, of the rogue master [Capt Schettino] taking a bad decision, isn't quite as black and white as they presented originally."
"This ship took a very similar route only a few months previously and the master would have known that."
Costa Cruises says it is looking into the claims, but stands by the statement it gave on Monday.
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Post  bb1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:45 pm

A strange little story from CdM - I am actually looking for Gonc stuff:

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/sobrinha-de-vitima-do-titanic-sobrevive-a-naufragio

Niece of the victim survives the sinking of the Titanic
The sinking of the cruise ship 'Costa Concordia' is connected to the Titanic in April 1912 by more than the mere similarity of the size of vessels. Valentina is that Capuano, 30, a survivor of the sinking last week against the Italian island of Giglio, Giovanni Capuano is the niece of one of the victims of the most famous naval accident in modern times.

The grandmother of the young Neapolitan often told him the terrible story. Giovanni boarded the Titanic as a waiter in the first and only voyage of the liner. His project was to come to America and start a new life, but the sea did not.
"It was like re-living the story. It was terrible. I'm very upset, "said Valentina, who, 100 years later, was one of the nearly 3,000 passengers involved in fatal collision of the 'Costa Concordia', which killed at least 11 people and left 23 others in uncertain fate.

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Post  Sabot on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:53 pm

The Management of Costa Cruises should not be commenting in the first place. This is a disgrace, presuming that it is even true. Is this how they treat their employees? Do they presume that their Captain is guilty at a time when no one knows what happened?
All hail to Guilty until proved Innocent.
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Post  bb1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:20 pm

Thing is, there are an awful lot of eye-witnesses, who are well qualified to know what they are talking about.

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16151520

Another captain, Roberto Bosio, who was off duty when disaster struck, has been hailed a hero after giving the order to abandon ship.
Capt Bosio, 45, who was seen helping dozens of women and children into lifeboats, has broken his silence, saying: "Only a disgraceful man would have left all those passengers on board."
He added: "It was the most horrible experience of my life. A tragedy, a heartache that I will carry with me forever.
"We managed to avoid the worse and have the world crash down around us. I just want to rest and forget.
"Don't call me a hero. I just did my duty, the duty of a sea captain - actually the duty of a normal man. I and the others with me just did our duty. We looked each other in the eyes for a second and then we just got on with it."



Time will, as ever, tell.

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Post  Sabot on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:49 pm


Too many heros, if you ask me. And all too ready to say what they would have done if it had been them.

You don't pass judgement on your own kind if you don't actually know what happened. That alone is it's own disgrace. The very least that these people should have done was to keep their mouths shut. Karma is a Bitch. Don't invoke it unless you personally are perfect.
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Post  bb1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:56 pm

Sabot, you cannot expect people who have been through something like that just to say nothing, why should they? When eye witness after eyewitness tells the same story - passengers, coastguards, islanders, official rescuers - well, they are probably telling the truth.

Fair enough, it's wrong to lynch Schettino in the media, but the people most involved in this have every right to be angry - and say so.

These are not armchair sailors, they are qualified seamen, coastguards, etc., who were actually there and saw it all. It was them.

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Post  bb1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:18 pm

An illustration of qualified professionals doing something beyond stupid:

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/asi:aeroflot-flight-593:child-in-the-cockpit

On 23rd March 1994, Aeroflot flight 593, an Airbus A310-304 passenger airliner, was flying from Moscow to Hong Kong. The relief pilot Yaroslav Kudrinsky allowed his two children to sit at the controls while the aircraft was on autopilot. Kudrinsky adjusted the autopilot’s heading to give his children the perception that they were actually turning the plane. Kudrinsky’s son applied enough pressure to the control column to disable the autopilot. This caused the aircraft to bank at more than 45 degrees, and finally led to the aircraft crashing near Mezhdurechensk, Russia, killing all 75 people onboard (63 passengers, 12 crewmembers).

You wouldn't think experienced airline pilots could do something so idiotic and dangerous - and not even realise what they had done - but they managed it. Killing everyone on board in the process.

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Post  Sabot on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:25 pm

I concede defeat to the right of an opinion since even I do not know what happened.

I am distressed by the giving of opinions by people who should know better, and who certainly should not be assuming when even they do not know.

I won't be commenting further. I have only commented so far because I feel that there is more to this than plain hysteria of the moment.
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Post  bb1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:31 pm

Of course there is more to it, Sabot - I suspect the cruise line knew perfectly well that these 'sail passes' were happening, and turned a blind eye because it was good publicity. Till it all went wrong.

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Post  bb1 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:35 pm

Cruise Ship Search Halted As Victim Is Named

Rescuers searching the Costa Concordia have been forced to suspend work again as one of the victims has been officially identified as a Hungarian musician who worked on the ship.

Divers examining the Italian cruise liner, which is grounded off the Tuscan island of Giglio, stopped work after the vast wreck shifted slightly.
But they are hopeful they will be able to resume work as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, the Hungarian government said the body of Sandor Feher, a 38-year-old violinist, was found inside the ship.
Jozsef Balog, a pianist working with Mr Feher on the ship, said Mr Feher was wearing a lifejacket when he decided to return to his cabin to pack his violin.
Mr Feher was last seen on deck en route to the area where he was supposed to board a lifeboat.
According to Mr Balog, Mr Feher helped put lifejackets on several crying children before returning to his cabin.
Mr Feher is among 11 people who have been confirmed dead.
Twenty-eight others, including 24 passengers and four crew, are still missing following the accident last Friday.


More at:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16151327

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Post  rhodes on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:22 pm

the captain "fell into a lifeboat" didn't he

yet again, you couldn't make this up!
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Post  bb1 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:25 pm

Quite, Rhodes, I'm not surprised that the coastguard who called him a *****, and the captain who was travelling as a passenger, and ended up taking charge, are both being hailed as heroes in Italy.

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Post  bb1 on Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:30 pm

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16153058

Fears Grow Cruise Ship Could Sink To Sea Bed


Given that the ship is lying only metres from deep water, I think it is little short of a miracle - and no thanks to her captain - that she came to rest on the reef.

If she had rolled, then the death toll today would have been in hundreds, at the very least.

And no, I am not impressed by Russian blondes who think he was doing a fantastic job till he ripped the ship's hull open on a rock which, far from not being on the charts, was seemingly sticking OUT of the water.

No wonder he was in such a rush to get off - pound to a penny, he thought it was going to capsize.

Interesting to see that the Portuguese Navy was none too impressed with his lucky fall into that lifeboat, either:

http://aeiou.expresso.pt/o-comandante-deve-ser-o-ultimo-a-abandonar-o-navio=f700538

Commander Alexandre Santos Fernandes notes, though, the STCW Convention ( International Convention of Standards of Trainning, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers, 1978 ), the International Maritime Organization, a UN agency, "states that the master is forbidden to leave ship by the greatest danger that the situation offers, be possible only in case of shipwreck, and after making sure that it is the last to do it. "

But for Alan Massey, "in many cases," the permanence of the ship commander, "may not be the right decision," since each company may adopt specific security policies.

"This is more a myth than a reality," concluded the most responsible, since July 2010, for deployment in the United Kingdom's maritime safety policy.

Responsibility and honor

Santos Fernandes also said that this standard "should be associated with the sense of responsibility and honor that always accompanied the men walking on the sea and especially commanders, who always knew how to take full responsibility for his ship and his garrison."

"The saying 'we're all in this together' is symptomatic of this way of life at sea who has their way of life," concluded the spokesman of the Portuguese Navy.

The commander of the "Costa Concordia", which sank near the island of Giglio, Italy, on Friday last, 13 days, left the vessel without the evacuation was complete.


While the days of captains going down with their ship may be over, it's a pretty poor show for the captain to 'fall' into the first lifeboat off.




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Post  sadie on Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:04 pm

Cant help worrying about this dreadful accident.

==============

The liner sailed on, presumably because such a large vessel would require a long distance to slow down and stop.

Whilst it was still moving it made a U-turn in presumably pretty shallow water. We have read that a large ship in shallow water is unstable, presumably because of the difficulties of dissipating the water displaced by the hull, in such a shallow rerstricted place?
The hull to this ship was very shallow relative to the height of the ship. No central fin to help stabalize it. The hull must have been VERY heavy and that weight kept the ship upright in normal conditions.

As this ship made a sharp U-turn at some speed, it would encounter centrofugal forces tending to throw it outwards. The hull, being in water, would encounter corresponding centropetal forces, but the superstructure would have nothing much except air to hold it vertical ... so would this be the moment that forces took over and caused the ship to list badly?


Did the ship actually start its severe list during its U turn? Did it sail on towards the harbour at that angle for some distance, with part of the superstructure dragging in the water? Or did it only lay itself down as it hit the sloping rocks?


If it were sailing whilst listing at a crazy angle, how could it be steered? Would the gear for steering it be out of water on the one side?

So many questions.


I know that we have at least one naval officer on board and at least one chartered engineer. Could I be correct with my ponderings? Does either of you know?

Maybe the captain thought that he was sailing a ship that was damaged, but fairly stable and he was shocked by the sudden listing as he turned the ship around and then spent his time fighting to steer the damned thing?



Only speculation ... sorry, but I cant help it! smile Hide bigyellowgrin

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Post  bb1 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:17 pm

Worry no more, Sadie, the captain is finally starting to tell something resembling the truth....he f*cked up bigtime:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16153662

Twelfth Body Found As Captain Admits Mistake

The body of a woman wearing a life jacket has been found on the Costa Concordia amid revelations the ship's captain admitted: "I messed up".

The woman's body was found on the fourth deck of the wrecked cruise liner near a muster area towards the rear of the ship this afternoon. Her identity has not yet been confirmed.
Her body brings the death toll to 12. Twenty people are still missing on board after the disaster.
The tragic discovery was made as it emerged that Capt Francesco Schettino made a frantic call 23 minutes after he had struck rocks on the night of January 13.
As terrified passengers began asking what had happened after the ship plunged briefly into darkness, Schettino called Costa Cruises operations manager Roberto Ferrarini in Genoa and told him: ''I messed up. We have touched the bottom (of the sea).

According to judicial documents which form part of the probe against him, Schettino continued: "I am telling you the truth. We sailed past Giglio and we took a hit.''
It also emerged today that a transcript of a call between Schettino and the Livorno harbourmaster recorded the captain vowing he would be the only person to stay on the ship.
It is not known at what time the call took place. In it, the harbourmaster asks: "Is everyone going to abandon the ship or is someone going to stay there?"
Schettino, according to the transcript, responds: "I'm going to stay here... I'm the only one who will stay here."
The captain, who is accused of abandoning ship before all the passengers could be evacuated, has claimed he tripped and fell into a lifeboat.
In the judicial documents he described the moment of impact, saying: ''All of a sudden I saw foam on the surface of the water off the bow of the ship. I knew immediately it was a reef that had not shown up on the radar.''
The ship was travelling at 16 knots. Schettino, the documents said, ordered the wheel to be turned ''full to the right'' and called for the engines to be thrown in ''full reverse'', but it was too late.
Schettino told investigating judge Valeria Montesarchio how after he had crashed into the rocks - known as Le Scole - he had sent two senior officers down to the engine room.
They reported that it was flooded and water was pouring in.
Schettino is currently is under house arrest near Naples, facing charges of manslaughter and abandoning ship after he allegedly left the liner before hundreds of passengers.

In the documents, Schettino confirmed that just half an hour before last week's tragedy, he had dined in the ship's exclusive Club restaurant along with Moldovan blonde cruise ship rep Domnica Cermortan, 25.
At the time of the impact last Friday at 21.42, Schettino said that Domnica was ''in a side room'' close to the bridge.
The revelations came as divers resumed their search for the 20 people still missing on board the ship.
Divers used explosives to blast holes in the ship, creating more entry - and escape - routes.
Large pieces of wreckage from where the ship first hit the rocks were also found as Italian officials confirmed light fuel has begun leaking into the pristine Tuscan waters surrounding the ship.
On Friday, Schettino was accused by the liner owner's CEO of misleading the company and crew after hitting the rocks.

CEO Pierluigi Foschi told Italian state TV that the company spoke to the captain at 10.05pm local time, some 20 minutes after the ship ran aground on January 13.
He said they could not offer proper assistance because the captain's decription "did not correspond to the truth".
Schettino said only that he had "problems" on board - but did not mention hitting a reef.
Likewise, Mr Foschi said crew members were not informed of the gravity of the situation.
Passenger video shown on Italian TV indicates crew members telling the 4,200 passengers on board the ship to go to their cabins as late as 10.25pm.
The abandon ship alarm sounded just before 11pm.
"That's because they also did not receive correct information on the gravity of the situation," Mr Foschi said.
Mr Foschi's comments are the latest showing the chaos and miscommunication with authorities on land as the emergency unfolded.
An audiotape of the Concordia's first contact with maritime authorities has a Concordia officer repeatedly replying that the ship had experienced a blackout - even though it had hit the reef more than half an hour earlier.
Italian media reported the officer on the call was Schettino.

Costa Crociere SpA, which offered support to the captain in the hours after the emergency, has now turned its back on him.
Costa has suspended Schettino, announced it is no longer paying his legal fees and has signed on as a civil party in the prosecution.
The move positions it as an injured party and would allow it to seek damages in the case of a guilty verdict.
New underwater images of divers are emerging showing them with large hunks of twisted metal torn from the ship when it struck the reef.
The stricken liner has been lying on its side near the port of Giglio Island ever since.
The slight movements registered by sensors placed on board the ship may just be vibrations as the ship settles on the rocks.
Salvage experts suggest it could be because of pockets of air gradually escaping.
But the greater fear is that the massive ocean liner is slowly slipping off the reef.


============================

'Touched the bottom' indeed - he makes it sound as if he was stuck on a sandbank - embarrassing, but more or less harmless.

And if the rock had a name, it can hardly be uncharted, could it?

I suspect it will turn out that he wasn't paying attention, ripped the port/left side of the hull open on the outside of the reef, realised what he had done, and turned round heading for shore inside the reef.

I also suspect that when the boat finally grounded, he thought it was in the deep channel, and that it was going to turn turtle and sink, hence his 'fall' into the lifeboat.

As it is now in danger of falling off the reef, I further suspect that it is only by the grace of God that it didn't sink in the deep channel with huge loss of life.

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Post  Pedro Silva on Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:42 pm

why not use cranes to put the ship horizontally, surely that facilitates the work of divers, and prevented further damage to the ship itself.
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Post  bb1 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:24 pm

mega cruise liner sinks - Page 4 16154256

The ship looks peaceful at sunset on January 21

It looks tantalisingly easy, so close to shore, doesn't it? I saw one idea which involved using giant airbags in the flooded section, to drive the water out and more or less balance her. I wouldn't even know where to begin; I'm in awe of the divers going right into her.

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Post  sadie on Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:58 pm

Pedro Silva wrote:why not use cranes to put the ship horizontally, surely that facilitates the work of divers, and prevented further damage to the ship itself.

They need floatation first Pedro ... and my guess is that it would have to be mighty big. Also, whilst the ship was being floated it would slip on the rocks down towards the deeper water and possibly sink to the bottom.

The first thing, imo, is to fasten the ship to the shore, but some method has to be devised to not only hold the ship, but also allow it to tilt to a vertical position. In fact it would need persuading to roll to a vertical position. My guess is they would use chains fastened to the rocks with winches fastened directly to the hull. They would fit floatation in calculated positions, use weights in calculated places as well almost certainly tugs attached to the superstructure. Positions again carefully calculated.

it is so far away from land, I doubt that land mounted cranes could have the required reach. Ship mounted cranes might be unstable with such a monster to handle, I would have thought. The whole operation is going to be so tricky. Remember, as the ship repositions itself, the water inside moves around causing immense problems.


I used to work on the design of cranes [OK OK unusual for a girl, but I was a design engineer and did work on cranes for a short time as a junior member of the team]. No ordinary crane could work at that reach; the moments (forces down at a long length) would be too great for the jib and also topple the crane, almost without doubt.

Maybe, and I know nothing about such things, the cranes could be deeply anchored to the rocks, then the reach would be reduced. A crane must have a stable and broad base.

Additionally, maybe, just maybe, long powerful hydraulic rams could be anchored to the rocks close to the ship and to the hull. These could help the tugs to roll the ship in a contrlooed manner.


All speculation, but I am enjoying pondering.

Forgive me Sabot, but I cant resist it.

I am not an expert at all, but enjoy trying to work problems out; that's what my professional life was about for years. You are all welcome to laugh kindly at my expense when i am proven wrong. Hahau



Rolling Eyes Jeez! That sadie and her theories! Rolling Eyes smile

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Post  Sabot on Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:16 pm


I was an Air Mechanic once upon a time, Sadie, and I was mainly good at it because I am little and could get into places that big, beefy men couldn't. It isn't actually very difficult to mend an Aeroplane.

We used to say that the people who designed these things ought to be made to work on them.
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Post  sadie on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:14 pm

Aeronautics are what took me into Engineering, Sabot. I liked speed and danger (when I was younger, not now!) and I had looped the loop and done the victory roll as a passenger in an old bi-plane. That got my mind set on something to do with aeroplanes and flying.

An Auntie suggested Aeronautical Engineering and that sounded good! Had no real idea what it was! Anyway I became a pioneer woman Mechanical engineer instead and ended up, on a design drawing board. We were at the heavy end of the market. It was at a time that England only had little tractors and diggers. One /two car car transporters. No upper deck in those days until we started designing the hydraulic lifts.

Our main design briefs were hydraulic equipment and the arms, buckets etc to change the bigger traction units that were coming out into diggers, bulldozers, backhoes, grab and lifts, and four in ones able to skim a layer of rough turf off the land and roll it neatly into the bucket. That was difficult.

We had a prototype workshop next door with some smashing guys in it; all skilled engineers and never once did they challenge me when I told them what i wanted. That was pretty remarkable, but I guess it was because they knew that I had done everything during my apprenticeship that I was asking of them and studied to a higher level.

I was a grease monkey for a short time too, but nothing as high faluting as an aeroplane; just cars and lorries and not on the ocean wave, but stuck in a Midland factory. I am very envious.

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Post  Sabot on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:59 am


It was pretty amazing, Sadie, not least because pilot's lives depended on what we did.
We all took it much more seriously than one might suppose. We were supplying Fighter Bombers to Front Line Squadrons on a daily basis. And with your signature on The A700 you don't mess about.
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Post  sadie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:33 pm

Lives were at risk with what we did too, but in a much less obvious way. If the crane jib failed, or the crane toppled and if the hydraulic systems failed, they could kill. It is quite a responsibility, isn't it, when lives are at risk?

We had a 'get out' thet you wouldn't have. We used to usually design with a safety factor of 4. In other words we designed everything to be four times stronger than the actual need. The only real worry was that we didn't ever accidentally design to the resonant frequency [Norman Fosters wobbly Millenium bridge across the Thames is a vivid example of that] cos'the damned thing would probably shake apart if we did..

Prototypes were well tested, partiallly to ensure that we hadn't hit the resonant frequency and partially to ensure that our designs worked efficiently, before releasing to the market. Loved the problem solving, and designing the finished product.

Was very proud that I managed to design a 4in1 bucket that rolled turf beautifully with hydraulic system plus arms etc, .. and after several guys had failed. Just a small one that 50 years later, is still in use around the world. Mainly in third wotld countries and in cramped conditions such as terraced farming. I was so lucky to have that job. Loved it and the peeps. Well paid too.


What you did, sabot, was especially important and you must have been very good and very trusted. You HAD TO GET IT RIGHT FIRST TIME. Well done youse.



Guess we are both pioneers and opened the doors for other women. But I didn't set out to do that, I just wanted to work with aeroplanes, flying and speed. You made it and I didn't, but I still had a fantastic time and sounds like you did too!


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Post  Sabot on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:07 pm


I was a Wren Air Mechanic, Sadie, in the days when only The Armed Forces trusted women to do this sort of thing. I would have had no chance in Civilian life. Your achievements could well have been better than mine because you had to fight The Establishment. I didn't have to do that.
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Post  sadie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:02 pm

No, I was lucky, sabot, because the owner of the group was actively looking for a woman to become the first female engineer (I think in the western world) via a recognised apprenticeship and college.. I think he was a philanthropist and possibly interested in sociology. So it wasn't difficult in that way.

Not easy being the only girl with about 270 young guys, but I decided that I wouldn't take offense at things and would laugh things off. And it worked.
I got ragged but laughed along with them... bet you did the same.

I loved it and I think the guys liked me. Good fun working with lively young men and great working on the design of new things, seeing them produceed and knowing that mass produced they helped the world. What an amazing experience!

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Post  Sabot on Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:36 pm


No one laughed at Wren Air Mechanics, Sadie. They were all queuing up to take us out.
This was a good thing because these were the days when Wrens were paid precisely half of what the men were paid. But I can't say that I minded about that. I was more interested in being deemed fit to do the job
Although my stepmother wouldn't allow me to fix her rotten washing machine which I could have done with my eyes shut. She preferred to pay an inordinate amount of money to a "Proper" mechanic. And I was right, it was just a blocked outlet pipe which required the removal of one jubilee clip. One bloody screw, for God's sake when I was used to fixing recalcitrant Jet Engine Starter Motors. The fact that you only had to hit them in the right place with a mallet is entirely beside the point. You needed to know where to hit them.
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