Catalonian referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41373977

Catalonia referendum: Madrid moves to take over local policing

The Spanish authorities have moved to place all policing in Catalonia under central control to stop the disputed independence referendum on 1 October.
Col Diego Pérez de los Cobos has been put in charge of Catalan and central police forces in the autonomous region.
The order was justified as a way to achieve better co-ordination. But the Catalan authorities rejected it, saying it was an unacceptable interference.
Thousands of extra police are being sent to the region to block the vote.
The Constitutional Court says the vote is illegal but Catalan leaders are determined to hold it.
Could FC Barcelona be kicked out of La Liga?
Does Catalonia want to leave Spain?
The Spanish authorities have sought to stop the independence vote by seizing voting materials, imposing fines on top officials and arresting temporarily dozens of politicians.
The public prosecutor's office justified the the appointment of Col Pérez de los Cobos on the basis of a law governing joint operations in an autonomous region.
The order will remain in place until 1 October, Catalan newspaper La Vanguardia reports....etc

This is a complicated issue, and, IMO, not as simple or as black and white as is being painted; it seems to be an open secret that even by Spanish standards, corruption is rife in Catalonia.

It's not that complicated Bonny. Catalans are a bratty bloody minded bunch, and have a GDP per capita around a third higher than the rest of Spain. So they are in effect subsidising the rest of the Spanish economy and could quite easily prosper as an independent country. Which is why Spain are very anxious about letting them have a referendum on independence.

In terms of population at 7.7m it would be half again the size of Denmark, with a similar GDP per capita.

The Catalans have experienced the heavy hand of Spain before, and within living memory. (Rather like wales, scotland and Ireland). Under Franco, speaking or writing in Catalan was illegal and punishable by heavy fines, or imprisonment. A few were shot 'pour encourager les autres' - including one of my distant cousins. My great great uncle spent 5 years in prison after being caught writing in Catalan.

So going it alone is much more of a possibility for the Catalans. Although a referendum does not have legal effect, it would send a very clear signal to Spain and the rest of the EU.

Interesting, Jean-Pierre, thank you. I freely admit to knowing very little about the historic background to all this, and anything that helps shed light on the matter is most welcome.

When I was working in London I had a lovely Catalan secretary, stayed with me for about a year. Mention the word 'Madrid' to Maria Dolores and she would explode with anger, she hated Castilians with a fervour! LL

Jean-Pierre.t50 wrote:It's not that complicated Bonny. Catalans are a bratty bloody minded bunch, and have a GDP per capita around a third higher than the rest of Spain. So they are in effect subsidising the rest of the Spanish economy and could quite easily prosper as an independent country. Which is why Spain are very anxious about letting them have a referendum on independence.

In terms of population at 7.7m it would be half again the size of Denmark, with a similar GDP per capita.

The Catalans have experienced the heavy hand of Spain before, and within living memory. (Rather like wales, scotland and Ireland). Under Franco, speaking or writing in Catalan was illegal and punishable by heavy fines, or imprisonment. A few were shot 'pour encourager les autres' - including one of my distant cousins. My great great uncle spent 5 years in prison after being caught writing in Catalan.

So going it alone is much more of a possibility for the Catalans. Although a referendum does not have legal effect, it would send a very clear signal to Spain and the rest of the EU.

I'll go along with this. But it becomes increasingly difficult to express an opinion on this Forum these days. Which is why I no longer comment.

But perhaps Bonny and Lamplighter don't realise how pedantic they are. Everything seems to be black and white to them. They know best, and don't bother arguing because you will get a put down. Which I have had once or twice.

Pedantic? Hardly, when there are a great deal more important and interesting things happening in the world than yet another dog thread. Personally, I am far more concerned about the dangers of the two lunatic presidents starting a war in the far East, or events in Spain spiralling into violence than I am in reading the same things over and over again about the McCann case.

Barring some major breakthrough, there's simply nothing new to be said, while we live in perilous times.

bb1 wrote:Pedantic? Hardly, when there are a great deal more important and interesting things happening in the world than yet another dog thread. Personally, I am far more concerned about the dangers of the two lunatic presidents starting a war in the far East, or events in Spain spiralling into violence than I am in reading the same things over and over again about the McCann case.

Barring some major breakthrough, there's simply nothing new to be said, while we live in perilous times.

Exactly. This part of The Forum has nothing to do with The McCanns. So why bring that up? And I don't see Perilous Times.

Personally, I think that Donald Trump is doing okay. But both you and Lamplighter preach at the rest of us, leaving no room for dissent.
While neither of you are even remotely interested in the fact that I live in France, and have done so for the last twenty five years. Often on a shoe string, and at the behest of my British State Pension, which is a joke around here.

Much as I am interested in my own daily life, I never was a complete moron academically. The Euro is doing absolutely fine. It is The Pound that is at fault, if in fact there is any fault. The price of a Dollar should tell you that.

The rest of it is peripheral rubbish, while some people seek to undermine what ever might look half stable.

America will be fine no matter what idiot they have as President, and this one won't be any worse than the last one.

Julian Assange


There are 7,5m Catalans (~1m fit men) a force which if rallied vastly eclipses the available capacities of Spain's police & army as police

Man living in embassy basement stirs up civil unrest in Spain.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/police-close-more-than-half-of-voting-centres-ahead-of-catalan-referendum

Police close voting centres before Catalan referendum
Thousands of police officers dispatched to evacuate polling stations in attempt to stop independence referendum with ultimatum issued for 6am Sunday....etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/30/spanish-ambassador-to-uk-calls-catalan-referendum-a-coup-detat

Spanish ambassador to UK calls Catalan referendum a ‘coup d’etat’
Carlos Bastarreche warns Catalan government’s move will have ‘serious implications’ for European stability


Whatever tomorrow brings, let's hope it doesn't spiral out of control into violence - everyone loses that way.

http://news.sky.com/story/police-fire-rubber-bullets-at-voters-in-barcelona-as-catalonia-poll-turns-violent-11062579

Police fire rubber bullets at voters in Barcelona as Catalonia poll turns violent
10:19, UK, Sunday 01 October 2017

Police have fired rubber bullets at crowds in Barcelona as violence erupted amid Catalonia's illegal independence poll.

Loud bangs rang out as projectiles were fired, sending people in the street screaming and running for cover.

Police vans drove through metal barriers as they cleared the road and witnesses reported seeing some people bleeding.



Sky News Europe Correspondent Mark Stone, at the scene, collected one of the large ball projectiles that were fired and said they were "pretty hard".

He said it was unclear whether there was any spark that caused police to act in what appeared to be a largely peaceful protest.

"Police were hitting people sitting on the ground with their batons. People then dispersed and moved out the way as a result and then the police vans - because space had been made for them - drove on through," said Stone.

"People were throwing barricades at the police, and it escalated from there.",,,etc

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People tend to the head wound of an elderly woman siting on a staircase as protesters take to the streets in Barcelona


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4937860/Riot-police-clash-voters-Catalonia.html#ixzz4uHDsThxa
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Appalling scenes from Catalonia.