GADDIFI TOPPLED!!!!!TRIPOLI CELEBRATING!!!!!!!!

I'm sure they have a rocky road ahead of them, and things will sometimes go wrong, it's inevitable, but my own feeling is that they will get there in the end.

The main problem would seem to be that they have no history of democratic political practices; no parties, no infrastructure such as we take for granted. They went straight from a king to as one-man state, no opposition, no media, no discussion, just Gadaffi. And there are also the tribes, often at war with each other and the rivalry between Tripoli and Benghazi - Libya declared its independence in December 1951, with Idris I as king and two capitals were established, one in Tripoli (Tripolitania), home of the parliament, and one in Benghazi (Bangasi), meeting place of the king and his cabinet. They are going to have to do some real hard-talking before the people of Libya can settle down to true democracy. The road is going to be very rocky. LL

This company has been running long weekends in Libya for history buffs:

http://www.coxandkings.co.uk/middle-east/libya-group-tours/libyan-long-weekend

I suspect it had to scrap its 2011 schedule, but I would think business will be brisk once things settle down. After all, whoever would have thought there would be package holidays in China...

This is what worries me, LL. This Tribal fighting can be a terrible thing. Not that we don't have a bit of it ourselves, but we have rather given up on hacking our rivals to death of late.

But will the young men from the cities feel quite the same tribal loyalism? Maybe that has been over-estimated? Not, I hasten to add, that I don't think the various factions will not do a fair bit of squabbling, but they may well manage to reach agreement for the way ahead.

I think personally it was a good sign when all those armed men actually obeyed requests to stop letting off rounds into the air last night?

bb1 wrote:This company has been running long weekends in Libya for history buffs:

http://www.coxandkings.co.uk/middle-east/libya-group-tours/libyan-long-weekend

I suspect it had to scrap its 2011 schedule, but I would think business will be brisk once things settle down. After all, whoever would have thought there would be package holidays in China...

There are some wonderful things to be found in The Kasbahs, Bonny. I would be going there if I could afford to. That lovely cloak cost me peanuts. And the carpets are indescribably beautiful.

And I have bought some fantastic stuff in The Chinese Emporium, albeit in Singapore.
Imported from China. This is why I have trouble getting into my house.

Al Jazeera latest:

Gaddafi burial delayed amid calls for probe

Slain leader's body to be kept in cold storage before secret burial as UN calls video of his last moments "disturbing".
Last Modified: 21 Oct 2011 16:11

Libya's National Transitional Council has delayed the burial for Muammar Gaddafi in order to arrange a secret location and allow for an investigation into his death, officials say.

On Friday, as videos continued to surface showing the fugitive deposed leader being captured alive by a crowd of NTC fighters, the United Nations' human rights office added its voice to calls for an investigation into how Gaddafi died.

"Taken together, they were very disturbing," Rupert Colville, spokesman for the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said of the images.

Gaddafi's body is being kept in a cold storage site in Misrata, where it was taken after NTC fighters captured and killed him in his hometown Sirte on Thursday. It bears a bullet hole in the head, the Reuters news agency reported.

Mohamed Sayeh, a senior member of the NTC, told the Associated Press news agency that a "third party will come from outside of Libya to go through the paperwork" relating to Gaddafi's death.

Sayeh said Gaddafi would be given a private burial with respect and in accordance with Islamic principles.

Al Jazeera's James Bays, reporting from Tripoli, said NTC officials were discussing behind the scenes how the event would take place and who would represent the Gaddafi family and his tribe.

But he said officials were keeping the media at arm’s length in the hope that the location of Gaddafi’s final resting place could be kept secret.

Captured alive

In the hours following Gaddafi's capture, NTC officials and fighters gave differing accounts of what happened, but several videos taken by fighters at the scene showed him being taken alive, though bleeding from the left side of his head.

The UN has raised concerns over the possibility that Gaddafi was executed. In the videos, fighters shout, scream and fire their weapons in the air. Some can be seen punching Gaddafi and pulling his head down by his hair.

Gaddafi, appearing dazed, gestures to them and touches his wound, then displays his bloody hand.

No videos have emerged showing the moment of Gaddafi's death, and it is unclear exactly how he received his mortal wound.

The first video, received by Al Jazeera, showed his lifeless body lying on the pavement.

An international commission of inquiry launched by the UN Human Rights Council is already investigating killings, torture and other crimes in Libya, and Colville, the UN human rights office spokesman, said he expected that panel would look into Gaddafi's death.

"It is a fundamental principle of international law that people accused of serious crimes should if possible be tried," he said. "Summary executions are strictly illegal. It is different if someone is killed in combat."

Jibril claims 'crossfire'

According to some reports from Sirte, Gaddafi and an escort of bodyguards had attempted to break out of the siege of the city, which had lasted for more than a month.

Their convoy was struck by French fighter jets and a US Predator drone, and a wounded Gaddafi took cover in a drainage pipe with his surviving entourage.

NATO said on Friday it had struck 11 vehicles that were among 75 vehicles attempting to force their way out of Sirte, but said it was unaware that Gaddafi was travelling in the convoy.

"The vehicles were carrying a substantial amount of weapons and ammunition posing a significant threat to the local civilian population," NATO said.

Tony Birtley reports on Gaddafi's last stand at end of article.

Pursuing NTC fighters fired at the group as they fled, then fought and killed some of the men guarding Gaddafi and took him captive, Reuters said, quoting eyewitnesses.

Mahmoud Jibril, the NTC's de facto prime minister, initially said Gaddafi had been killed in a "crossfire" and that it didn't matter what happened to Gaddafi's body "as long as he disappears".

"He was alive up to the last moment, until he arrived at hospital," in the city of Misrata, Jibril said.

Jibril pledged to resign after the fall of Sirte, which the NTC set as the final criterion for declaring the "liberation" of Libya.

Speaking about the way forward, Bays said the first step toward rebuilding Libya would be an official declaration of liberation, expected to take place on Saturday in Benghazi, the eastern city that became the headquarters of the revolt against Gaddafi.

A newly formed interim government, headed by a new prime minister to replace Mahmoud Jibril, would then lead Libya towards elections, expected to take place in eight months.

The new prime minister would have to balance competing groups and factions in Benghazi, Tripoli and Misrata, as well finding common ground between the political and military bases that steered the revolution through, Bays said.

Abu Bakr Younus, Gaddafi's defence minister, and Mutassim, one of Gaddafi's sons and former national security advisor, were also killed in Sirte on Thursday.
NATO mission to end

A decision to gradually wind down NATO's mission was expected to be taken at a meeting of ambassadors of the 28 NATO nations in Brussels on Friday, based on recommendations from NATO military commanders.

"Certainly surveillance will continue as we need to continue to monitor the situation," one official said.

NATO officials said the decision would take into account the ability of Libya's interim authorities to maintain security.

On Wednesday, NATO ambassadors put off a decision because of caution by countries such as Britain and France, which have been at the forefront of the military intervention.

"Clearly the operation is coming to its end," French President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Friday.

William Hague, the British foreign minister, said on Thursday that Gaddafi's death brought the end of the operation "much closer", but added: "I think we will want to be sure there are no other pockets of pro-Gaddafi forces still able to threaten the civilian population."

Good morning!

Al Jazeera video:

Can't say personally I have too many questions about Gaddafi's death, but I suppose the UN have to go through the motions of sounding concerned.

bb1 wrote:Can't say personally I have too many questions about Gaddafi's death, but I suppose the UN have to go through the motions of sounding concerned.

I think this has to be done so as to prove that the NTC had nothing to do with what happened. As Tony Birtley said, if the rebels that captured him had been from anywhere in Libya other than Misrata then he might have survived. But his threats against that city and the fact he hated the city from when he was a young man probably fuelled the mob's anger and they lost control. Personally, I think it couldn't have happened to a more deserving creature, and I hope it hurt like hell. LL

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16093936

Libyan Teenage Grenade Victim Walks Again
0Comments
8:08am UK, Saturday October 22, 2011
Lisa Holland, foreign affairs correspondent

A 15-year-old boy who was the first Libyan patient flown to Britain for medical treatment during the uprising against Colonel Gaddafi has started to walk again.

Abdul Elhamdi has been in the UK for a month after becoming the first of 50 people injured in the conflict to be given British medical help.
And he is finally back on his feet, two months after a horrific accident in his home country in which his friend died.
Sky News was at Tripoli Central Hospital when Abdul and his friend Wasir were rushed in, both in a terrible state.
The two boys had discovered a stash of weapons hidden in their school, including a grenade.
Wadir appeared to take the full force of the explosion when it blew up, his skin blown from his face and stomach.



Abdul Elhamdi, 15, has now started to walk again

Abdul had flesh blown from his legs - down to the bone in parts.
Wadir was so badly injured that he stood little chance of survival.
Doctors battled to get his heart going again but, it soon became clear all hope was lost and several nurses started to cry.
Abdul was at risk of losing his leg and needed specialist care - but when Sky returned two days later his father Rashid was pacing the hospital corridors in despair.
Doctors at that point were overwhelmed and had to concentrate on emergency cases.
Sky viewers, moved by the report, got in touch and offered to pay for Abdul to be flown to Britain for treatment.



Abdul in hospital in Tripoli shortly after the explosion

By the time he arrived, the British government had announced 50 patients would come to the UK - paid for by the Libyan authorities.
Abdul was the first to arrive and now, a month on, he has started to walk again.
He can only manage a few steps at a time but his determined spirit was evident as he tried to show he could stand on his own for a few seconds without crutches.
Plastic surgeon Shehan Hettia said: "When he came over, he was unwell, he had a temperature, his wounds were infected and there was a risk of not being able to salvage his leg, or, worst-case scenario, of Abdul becoming unwell in himself.

"And luckily he has done really well. He is back up, walking and mobilising and he is getting back to being a normal boy.
"He has had about four operations in total. His operating phase is now over. Seeing him from looking the way he looked when he came off the back of an ambulance, he looked like a sick child. Now look at him.
"He has got a way to go but I'm sure he'll get there. These are traumatic, big events for a lad to go through but he's been very resilient."
Abdul's father, Rashid, said: "I was a bit worried but now I'm relieved and I'm very happy and glad his operations went well.
"I'd like to thank all the people who've helped Abdul. He's made a lot of progress over the last few weeks and he's getting better every day.
"It's been a very worrying time for me and the rest of the family. I'm delighted he's getting better."
Abdul should be well enough to return to Tripoli in the next few weeks.

the fact he hated the city from when he was a young man probably fuelled the mob's anger and they lost control.

I watched a report last night, LL, in which it was claimed his daughter phoned him AFTER he had been captured, but was still alive.

She didn't know he had been captured, and when one of the rebels answered his phone, she started shouting at them and calling them rats.

I don't know if it is true or not, but Gaddafi was certainly shouting at them; whilst it is not desirable, I can quite see that being berated by both Gaddafi and his obnoxious daughter at that precise moment may have been the last straw.

I've also seen a lot of handwringing and wailing about Libya having no chance of democracy and peace due to Gaddafi's somewhat gory demise.

What - like Italy and Rumania after they disposed of their tyrants? The only real difference is that those two weren't instantly broadcast around the world via cellphones.

I do wish these people would learn from history.

If the report is true and she started berating them, especially as he called the rebels rats, that could well have pushed the mob over the edge. He was, apparently, demanding to know why they were hurting him and begging them not to shoot, and also he is supposed to have asked one of them what he had done to him that he should be so badly treated. Also, I am sure I heard someone shouting 'Allah Akbar', might have been Gadaffi in an attempt to show he was a good Muslim, and Muslims do not kill Muslims, the Koran says - I assume he had never read it? But, as you rightly say, no-one complained when the video of the Ceacescus being dragged screaming to be shot was shown again and again on Sky etc and that was not so long ago, well within living memory, whereas the Italian example was 67 years ago, well outside the average person's memory. LL

Indeed, LL - and there are still a great many elderly Europeans who remember the deaths of Mussolini and his girlfriend - it is actually part of Sofia Loren's family history, as her sister married her son.

It happened in TWO European nations - and neither Italy nor Rumania were any the worse for despatching their tyrants.

And no, it isn't desirable - but being killed by your enraged subjects is one of the historical hazards of being a bloodthirsty despot.

Libya Commanders: No Post-Mortem On Gaddafi

There will not be a post-mortem examination on the body of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi despite concerns over how he died, according to military commanders in Libya.

It comes as the country's prime minister said Libyans should be allowed to vote within eight months to elect a national council that would draft a new constitution and form an interim government.
After the death of Col Gaddafi on Thursday, the priority was to remove weapons from the streets, restore stability and order and begin a process of national reconciliation, PM Mahmoud Jibril said.
He said the deposed dictator had been killed in crossfire after he was captured alive and was being driven away.
Mr Jibril claimed he died during a gunfight between Col Gaddafi's followers and forces loyal to the National Transitional Council (NTC) in his home town of Sirte.
But a top UN human rights chief has raised concerns the tyrant could have been killed by revolutionary fighters after footage emerged of him being taken alive, then dead.

The US has urged the Libyan authorities to determine the circumstances of his death in an "open and transparent manner".
Libya's interim leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said an investigation was being carried out into how he died.
But Misratah military council spokesman Fathi al Bashaagha told AFP: "There will be no post-mortem today, nor any day. No one is going to open up his body."
His comments were confirmed by two other Misratah military commanders.
Sky News has seen Gaddafi's death certificate, which states he had gunshot wounds to the left side of his head and his chest.

Meanwhile, a military spokesman has said Libya's transitional government will declare a day of liberation on Sunday - officially marking the end of the Gaddafi regime.
As celebrations continue across the country, Col Gaddafi's burial continues to be delayed, with officials divided over what to do with his body.
The tyrant's family have said in a statement to a Syria-based pro-Gaddafi TV station that they want his body, along with that of his dead son Mutassim, returned to Sirte so it can be buried.
Col Gaddafi's bloodied remains were taken to the city of Misratah on Thursday after he was captured and killed.

More at:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16094040

Oh, I can just see the new government wanting to turn Sirte cemetary into a Gaddafi shrine...I don't think what the Gaddafi family wants carries too much weight any more?

The Libyans are no more likely to bury him in Sirte than the US was to allow Bin Laden to be buried on land, or the Germans to allow Hitler to be buried in his home town which is actually in Austria. If they are clever, the Libyans will cremate him and his son, put the ashes in a bag, weigh it down with stones and drop it in the sea, preferably outside the Med. That way he does not pollute Libya's home waters nor that of the surrounding countries; and the ocean is a very big place .... LL

An interesting article in the Opinion section of the Al Jazeera website, it's rather long so here is the link. LL

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/2011102151443683876.html

Al Jazeera Live Blog:

Libyan authorities are planning a secret burial for Muammar Gaddafi.

The former leader died after his home city of Sirte fell to fighter loyal to the new government on Thursday.

In Misrata, huge crowds gathered for Friday prayers. Gaddafi's body is reportedly being held in the city

Al Jazeera's James Bays reports from Tripoli.

Surely we are not going to hear long and drawn out whails of protest from the Gaddafi Family about how badly they've been treated. Who do they think they are? The less we hear from them the better.
And I hope they didn't get their, sorry, Libya's money out.

Is it alright to cremate a Muslim? Not that I care. Just asking.

Sabot wrote:
Surely we are not going to hear long and drawn out whails of protest from the Gaddafi Family about how badly they've been treated. Who do they think they are? The less we hear from them the better.
And I hope they didn't get their, sorry, Libya's money out.

Is it alright to cremate a Muslim? Not that I care. Just asking.

This is the strict law according to the Koran. LL:

Q. Why is cremation not allowed for Muslims who have passed away?

A. The wisdom is that Allah has forbidden us to use fire on His creation. The body continues to feel after the soul has left it. The Shari`a recommends to wash it gently, not roughly, and to use lukewarm water, neither cold nor hot.

Well, why don't they just phone the Las Vegas Mafia? They are renowned for their skills in making bodies vanish in deserts.

Thanks, LL -

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/2011102151443683876.html

that is an excellent piece.

I am sure the irony of the surviving Gaddafi clan demanding bodies is not being missed in Libya. I shudder to think how many tens of thousands of Libyans vanished, never to be seen again, by his edict.

As the rebels advanced they were digging up mass graves outside practically every town. There are the ones killed in the prisons, the political ones tortured to death, the villages decimated on his orders. They are never really going to be able to give final, correct numbers of those who dies on his orders over 42 years. So the people who have missing loved ones will be still suffering for many years to come; and there are those who went into exile and will now come back to find their family has vanished. Such a sorrowful place Libya will be despite all the present joy. LL

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16094202

Gaddafi 'Offered Riches As He Begged To Live'

Desperate Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi begged for his life by offering gold and money before he was killed, a witness has revealed.

Hammad Mufti Ali, 28, has told how the former leader frantically offered his captors riches beyond their wildest dreams after he was dragged from his sewer hideaway.
The details emerged as mystery still surrounded the final moments of Col Gaddafi's life and as his body remained unburied amid calls for an investigation into his death.
Mr Ali, the commander of a brigade in Sirte, told Italian newspaper Corriere Della Sera: "He was pulled from the drain and he was pushed around.

"He said he was willing to offer anything in exchange for his life - he said he had money and gold for us if we spared his life.
"He was losing a lot of blood - he was 69 years old and his body could not take it. He was in a bad way. He had had wounds everywhere from shrapnel and from being beaten."
Mr Ali added: "At one point someone screamed at him that instead of talking about money, as a good Muslim he should have been praying for his soul to be entrusted to God before dying.
"But he just kept saying he was ready to give us lots and lots of money and gold."

Col Gaddafi is said to have had more that $200bn (£125bn) in cash and gold hidden away with some of it spread in secret accounts across the world.
Reports earlier this year after the start of the revolution said he had flown some of his wealth to Zimbabwe.
The International Monetary Fund has said it believes Libya had at least 140 tons of gold hidden away - if not more and that the bulk was hidden in the vaults of the central bank in Tripoli.
But he was thought to have taken several bars with him to use as bargaining chips.

---------------------------

I am sure thousands of his victims also begged for their lives.

Al Jazeera, latest update:

Gaddafi's Body To Go To His Extended Family


Colonel Gaddafi's dead body is to be handed to his extended family in a deal reached with Libya's interim government, Sky News has learned.

The National Transitional Council's (NTC) foreign affairs spokesman Ahmed Gebreel said the handover may be imminent.
But he admitted it had not yet been decided where the dictator will be buried, which will be crucial to avoid his grave becoming a shrine.
Mr Gebreel told Sky News: "I think the decision has been taken already, which is to hand over the body of Gaddafi to his extended family.
"There are consultations between the NTC and with people from Sirte on whom the body should be handed over to.
"Some [relatives] are in Sirte and some in other cities. We expect this to happen very soon. If not in the coming hours, it will be in a few days."
He added: "There are consultations between the NTC and Gaddafi's family. It is in the interests of his family and the whole country to bury Gaddafi in a secret place but this has not been decided yet.

More at:

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16094040