Re: Adrian Prout Admits To Killing his wife

**Maggs** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:09 pm

crazytony wrote:
bb1 wrote:What, Maggs? Surely they must be, if they haven't been signed, they are completely valueless?
If, there is no signed statement then the search was illegal.
ETA: He was either working in an official capacity for the PJ or he wasn't. If he was, then he must have signed a statement. If he wasn't, then he should never have been filmed with his dogs working on the McCann case.

On the CARTAS ROGATORIAS all it say's is
This deposition was made by me and is true according to my understanding.

I'll take a look on file statements.

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:10 pm

bb1 wrote:http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

Are the original, English statements anywhere to be found, or are we back in the situation where we are looking at translations of translations?

Whether in Portuguese or English Bonny, the statements must bear his signature.

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:13 pm

I possibly can't see it for looking, but I can't find an original in English, and the Portuguese translation certainly isn't signed:

Adrian Prout Admits To Killing his wife - Page 7 Cr3_25

Adrian Prout Admits To Killing his wife - Page 7 Cr3_25

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:15 pm

bb1 wrote:I possibly can't see it for looking, but I can't find an original in English, and the Portuguese translation certainly isn't signed:

If there is no signature, the statement and the videos are worthless.

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:19 pm

[quote="honestbroker"]

crazytony wrote:
honestbroker wrote:
crazytony wrote:

From Grime's rogatory interview:

Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog?
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.

But why did Grime instruct that the toy be examined?

We know the toy was never sent to the FSS ...
Then there was nothing on the toy.

Certainly no reaction from the blood dog.

None of the dogs should have been allowed to play with the toy. This isn't me saying it, this is a Law Enforcement K 9 trainer saying it. Also from a dozen civilian dog cadaver trainers.

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:32 pm

Is that the final page? It looks odd.....

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:33 pm

honestbroker wrote:Interesting. Final page of the English original of Harrison's report.

But, again, no signature?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2224.jpg

Without a signature, Father Christmas might as well have made the statements.

**Maggs** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:43 pm

No signature on the files.
But here's Grimes Summary

SUMMARY

The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and locate human remains or Human blood.

The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

CADAVER AND HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOGS

SEARCH ASSET PROFILES

LICENSING AND ACCREDITATION

U.K. A.C.P.O. licensed and accredited cadaver dogs are trained and licensed on the basis of the relevant section of the Police Dog Training and Care manual. This involves the training of G.P. (General Purpose) dogs to alert to the presence of surface deposition and sub-surface deposition to approximately 2 feet. The dogs are deployed on long lines to search an area in large numbers.

The U.K. also has approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider variety of scenarios. Pig is used as it has been proven in training and
operationally over the last 20 years to be a reliable analogue for human remains detecting training for dogs. The possession of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time

Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted over a period of a week, twice annually. It is conducted utilising independent A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a daily basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario based exercises.

Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained. They are tested to units of assessment prepared as a stand-alone system as these dogs are unique.
Training records are maintained and are available if required.

All operational deployments are video recorded including a control sample find when appropriate.

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:44 pm

Of course, these should simply never have been made public. They were made by UK citizens, who no doubt assumed Portugal would respect UK law.

As we know, those laws were not respected.

But on the other hand, Mark Harrison's detailed report should be compulsory reading for the morons going on about bodies mummifying on the beach - a particularly ghoulish, sicko exchange is currently going on on Bennett's forum.

They really should take a look at this:

Adrian Prout Admits To Killing his wife - Page 7 MarkHarrisonreport3

Adrian Prout Admits To Killing his wife - Page 7 MarkHarrisonreport3

They won't bother, though, they are enjoying themselves too much being disgusting.

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:49 pm

Maggs wrote:No signature on the files.
But here's Grimes Summary

SUMMARY

The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and locate human remains or Human blood.

The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as evidence.

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

CADAVER AND HUMAN BLOOD DETECTING DOGS

SEARCH ASSET PROFILES

LICENSING AND ACCREDITATION

U.K. A.C.P.O. licensed and accredited cadaver dogs are trained and licensed on the basis of the relevant section of the Police Dog Training and Care manual. This involves the training of G.P. (General Purpose) dogs to alert to the presence of surface deposition and sub-surface deposition to approximately 2 feet. The dogs are deployed on long lines to search an area in large numbers.

The U.K. also has approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider variety of scenarios. Pig is used as it has been proven in training and
operationally over the last 20 years to be a reliable analogue for human remains detecting training for dogs. The possession of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time

Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted over a period of a week, twice annually. It is conducted utilising independent A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a daily basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario based exercises.

Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling' programme to ensure best practice is maintained. They are tested to units of assessment prepared as a stand-alone system as these dogs are unique.
Training records are maintained and are available if required.

All operational deployments are video recorded including a control sample find when appropriate.

His dogs were untested and without license when hired for the Jersey debacle.

**Maggs** Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:58 pm

His dogs were untested and without license when hired for the Jersey debacle.

Wasn't his excuse something to do with them not being in the EU Tony?

**Maggs** Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:14 pm

honestbroker wrote:The Originals of Grime's statements in Poruguese

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2462.jpg[i]

Of course Jesus never left a written record.

I'm unsure Grime is quite Jesus, though ...

I have the Portuguese originals too HB. but can't tell if they have been altered.
Still no signatures on either.

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:20 pm

Well, Grime certainly isn't Portuguese, so yet again, we have translations of translations....

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:27 pm

Maggs wrote:
His dogs were untested and without license when hired for the Jersey debacle.
Wasn't his excuse something to do with them not being in the EU Tony?

Is Jersey Independent of the Crown?

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:36 pm

I don't think that, legally, it is part of the UK, Tony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey

Jersey, officially the Bailiwick of Jersey ( /ˈdʒɜrzi/, French: [ʒɛʁzɛ]; Jèrriais: Jèrri) is a British Crown Dependency[5] off the coast of Normandy, France.[6] As well as the island of Jersey itself, the bailiwick includes two groups of small islands that are no longer permanently inhabited, the Minquiers and Écréhous, and the Pierres de Lecq[7] and other rocks and reefs.
Jersey is a self-governing parliamentary democracy under a constitutional monarchy, with its own financial and legal and judicial systems.[8]
The island of Jersey is the largest of the Channel Islands. Although the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey are often referred to collectively as 'the Channel Islands', they are not a constitutional or political unit. Jersey has a separate relationship to the British Crown from the other Crown Dependencies of Guernsey and the Isle of Man.[9] It is not part of the United Kingdom[10] and has an international identity separate from that of the UK[11], but the United Kingdom is constitutionally responsible for the defence of Jersey.[12] Jersey is not a part of the European Union but has a special relationship with it, being treated as part of the European Community for the purposes of free trade in goods.[13]

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:59 pm

bb1 wrote:I don't think that, legally, it is part of the UK, Tony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey

Jersey, officially the Bailiwick of Jersey ( /ˈdʒɜrzi/, French: [ʒɛʁzɛ]; Jèrriais: Jèrri) is a British Crown Dependency[5] off the coast of Normandy, France.[6] As well as the island of Jersey itself, the bailiwick includes two groups of small islands that are no longer permanently inhabited, the Minquiers and Écréhous, and the Pierres de Lecq[7] and other rocks and reefs.
Jersey is a self-governing parliamentary democracy under a constitutional monarchy, with its own financial and legal and judicial systems.[8]
The island of Jersey is the largest of the Channel Islands. Although the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey are often referred to collectively as 'the Channel Islands', they are not a constitutional or political unit. Jersey has a separate relationship to the British Crown from the other Crown Dependencies of Guernsey and the Isle of Man.[9] It is not part of the United Kingdom[10] and has an international identity separate from that of the UK[11], but the United Kingdom is constitutionally responsible for the defence of Jersey.[12] Jersey is not a part of the European Union but has a special relationship with it, being treated as part of the European Community for the purposes of free trade in goods.[13]

Confusing to say the least.

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:28 pm

honestbroker wrote:Another interesting point from an earlier post of Tony's:

The major one being, having both of his own dogs on the same scene working together and he handling them. It is a major no, no, it leads to doubt as to whether the handler is priming the dogs.

Would tend to confirm that, during their SYP days, Grime would not have been Keela's handler, but rather another handler, John Ellis is a name I've seen in a paper article.

So why was Keela retired with Grime aged just 3 and with more than half her working life in front of her?

Who actually owned the dogs at the time of Grime's retirement?

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:42 pm

But if Grime wasn't Keela's handler, why was she retired with him?

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:52 pm

Good question, Tony - she was still quite young, wasn't she?

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:57 pm

When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
“We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.”

to pick up any general scent

What does that mean?

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:59 pm

bb1 wrote:When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun.
“We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.”

to pick up any general scent

What does that mean?

So she had two handlers?

**bb1** Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:04 pm

Two handlers, picking up ' general scent' - this is why the woofs give me a headache, nothing is ever simple and straighforward.

**Maggs** Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:05 pm

From Martin Grimes statement

BOXES OF CLOTHING/PROPERTY FROM MR McCANN'S RESIDENCE.

At a suitable venue numerous boxes of clothing/property taken from the McCann present residence were screened using both the EVRD and the CSI dog. The venue was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing /property. Neither gave an alert indication. The screening then took place with the contents of each box being placed around the room in turn. The process was recorded by video and written records were taken by PJ officers.The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ ofíicerspresent.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent'
contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

**crazytony** Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:17 pm

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent'
contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
So a possible is what made Amaral say it was fact.....stupid tube!

**Maggs** Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:18 pm

honestbroker wrote:It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'a cadaver scent'
contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

Grime was quizzed quite closely about how Eddie reacts and what you can tell about the way it reacts.

I wonder if it was statements like that (of Grime's) that prompted those questions?

I think those questions were asked, hoping Gonc could stitch Kate up.
I understand they were Gonc's questions, written to be asked in this Country by the police.

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