Breaking News!!!! Richard III's Body Found!

That was very good - hard to believe Dominic had never even ridden a horse before, he was a marvel!

MORE4 - R3, the untold story now on   LL

It's 11pm here so goodnight! LL      

Goodnight, LL, I am sure you enjoyed your evening's viewing.   

I really enjoyed it, though I could have done with more Dominic and less Health Police. He was a star, and had really got into the swing of things by the time of the head-splattering.   

I felt for him when he was bouncing around in the modern saddle like a sack of potatoes (I know that feeling    ) but he seemed to transform as soon as it was changed to the medieval saddle. Hope you saw it, Sabot - big warhorses.

   Hope it comes here.....

I am sure it will soon be on YouTube or similar, Lily, it's C4 and they aren't as precious about their material as the BBC. C4 must be delighted that they got involved with the project when everyone thought it was going to be a wild goose chase, they seem to have the rights to all sorts of material.

Pleased to hear that.   

I shall have to wait for YouTube.  But glad it was good.

But what I like most about situations like this is that all of the horrible people who teased him will be green with envy.

An early opinion - the section on the scoliosis, armor etc was very interesting. The section on the wining and dining showed how little that woman and the program makers know about medieval society and kingship. And to say that Richard had to be, like E4, a glutton and a drunkard .... And the final comment by someone that Richard was dissolute was the last straw. When I have calmed down a bit I will comment further. LL

Don't worry, LL. We don't believe it.

Sabot wrote:Don't worry, LL.  We don't believe it.

Merci,  ma petite.  I am going to post up a rebuttal at some point today.  I have praise for the military section, but the rest  ....   LL

That part of it was just plain stupid, LL - of all the many things the poor man has been accused of, being a fat drunk isn't one of them. I wonder, did those scientists grasp that he wasn't eating those multi-course meals single-handed, that they were shared by THOUSANDS of people, from the crown to the lowest retainers?

And swans and cranes are NOT 'exotic'; they were simply wildfowl. We just don't eat them any more.

I would have preferred an hour of Dominic, and the science on a totally different show. It was just plain silly.

How on earth did they manage to miss out the small detail that what actually caused his death at Bosworth was the Stanleys' treason? Cutting down on his swan-consumption wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

Okay, let's put some things claimed in that documentary right.

I'll start off with E4 - from Wikipedia:

Edward was considered a good-looking man. Philippe de Commynes, who saw him on several occasions, thought the King handsomer than any prince he knew - 'I don't remember ever having seen a man more handsome than he was when monsieur de Warwick made him flee England.'   His impressive physique and height (approximately six feet four inches) were set off by splendid clothes, whereas Henry VI was well known for wearing dull, drab garments.

When Parliament met at Westminster on 12 November 1461, the Speaker, Sir James Strangways - who had fought by the side of Edward's father, the Duke of York, at Wakefield and survived - referred to 'the beauty of person that it hath pleased Almighty God to send you' and 'the wisdom that, by his grace, accompanies it'. He also praised Edward's 'noble and worthy merits, princely and knightly courage, and the blessed and noble disposition and dedication of your said highness to the common weal and government of your said realm.

However things seem to have changed after he had his brother George executed for treason.   It was downhill from then on as the Woodvilles appear to have controlled him up to his death in 1483 at the age of 41.    He was definitely bloated and in a hell of a mess when he died.   It is not known what actually caused Edward's death.   Pneumonia and typhoid have both been conjectured, as well as poison. Some attributed his death to an unhealthy lifestyle, as he had become stout and inactive in the years before his death.  

R3 - From the just after the coronation of E4 until the king died in April 1483, Richard resided in Yorkshire as his brother's viceroy in an area of England that was mainly Lancastrian.  Richard turned this around to the north being almost totally Yorkist in allegiance even after Bosworth.    Richard rarely came down to London, usually only for the promolgation of Parliament and to try and save George's life.    Up to the time E4 died Richard would not have eaten himself silly, nor drunk himself blotto as he was very busy formulating laws that are still in place today,  setting up the first 'pony express' between his lands and the king in London and keeping a military eye on Scotland and the Borders.   Whereas I can find mention of E4 being a hearty trencherman I have never seen any mention of orgies of eating and drinking where Richard was concerned.   And as for his eating habits changing in the last three years of his life - of course they would.   The medieval king was not just an absolute monarch, he was also a diplomat; frequent banquets would be held for the various visitors from other countries wishing to set up good relations with the new ruler.   But attending a banquet does not mean one ate and drank everything in sight - and I am sure that, if such had been R's way, then the Tudors would have made much of him being as that fool said 'dissolute'.     Quite a lot of the comments made smacked to me of pro-Lancastrian propoganda.   LL

Thanks, LL, looking forward to more...I've been reading round, and can see a lot of people are none too happy with Richard's portrayal as a drunken swan-scoffer.

Interesting, is it not, that Edward's grandson H8 was, physically, a near-double of his grandfather, and degenerated in a similar way? Though Edward wasn't a sadistic maniac, of course...

Richard as lawgiver.

With the untimely death of his brother, Edward IV in 1483, he was petitioned by the Lords and Commons of Parliament to accept the kingship of England. On July 6 1483, Richard III was crowned. His first and only Parliament was held during January and February of 1484. He passed the most enlightened laws on record for the Fifteenth Century. He set up a council of advisors that diplomatically included Lancastrian supporters, administered justice for the poor as well as the rich, established a series of posting stations for royal messengers between the North and London. He fostered the importation of books, commanded laws be written in English instead of Latin so the common people could understand their own laws. He outlawed benevolences, started the system of bail and stopped the intimidation of juries.

During his royal progress of 1483, Richard refused great gifts of cash from various cities saying he would rather have their goodwill than their money. Bishop Thomas Langton said: "He contents the people where he goes best that ever did prince, for many a poor man hath suffered wrong many days, hath been relieved and helped by him, and his commands on his progress. And in many great cities and towns were great sums of money given to him, which he hath refused. On my troth, I never liked the conditions of any prince so well as his. God hath sent him to us for the weal of us all."

During his Parliament, he issued statutes, but he also founded the College of Arms that still exists today. He re-established the Council of the North in 1484 at Sheriff Hutton. He donated money for the completion of St. George's Chapel at Windsor and King's College in Cambridge. He modernized Barnard Castle, built the great hall at Middleham and the great hall at Sudeley Castle. He undertook extensive work at Windsor Castle and ordered the renovation of apartments at one of the towers at Nottingham Castle.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Richard-III-Lord-of-the-North/710853875617635

Worth a look at for the pics. LL

New book due out 28 May 2015. http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/products/josephine+wilkinson/richard+iii/8552394/

I'm not sure what you want to know, but maybe members can post up questions and I'll do my best to answer them. LL

I think it's a great pity, LL, that the really fascinating part of the story - Dominic's evolution into a warrior - has been overshadowed by this flaming nonsense about Richard's eating and drinking. It's somewhere beyond stupid to try to put 21st century finger-wagging onto the late Middle Ages. They didn't even allow for the fact that ALL the aristocracy ate well - better than junk food and Big Macs - and everyone drank alcohol continually.

I recall one of the 'experts' announcing that Richard 'drank three litres of alcohol' a day? Really? He'd have been dead long before Bosworth if he had. More likely, it was the equivalent of a six-pack of beer.

You will know more about this than me, LL, but I am sure I recall reading contemporary reports of Richard being a fidget - forever on the move for some reason or another. The contemporary accounts simply do not match what the scientists had to say.

I'm sorry Dominic's contribution to understanding Richard have been overshadowed; he laid to rest forever any suggestion that Richard couldn't have been a warrior king. If Dominic could lead a cavalry charge after a a few months of intensive training, then someone who had been trained to fight since childhood would have had no problems at all.

Oh, I've just remembered something else - didn't some 'expert' announce that Richard ate a lot of fresh water fish, which was a delicacy then?

Because it wasn't. Did someone forget to tell the 'expert' that monasteries routinely had carp ponds - like medieval fish farms - and that was the supposed 'reformation' that wrecked all that?

Medieval king and nobles usually owned many houses dotted all over the country and they would move from one to the other. In fact this practice went on well into the Georgian age; even today the Queen moves house every so often. Richard would routinely travel around his properties, dispensing justice, checking the lands and houses were being well-maintained, hearing pleas from his retainers and the local people, settling disputes, dealing with prelates and the church and so on. He would attend the Courts of Oyer and Terminer - a court for the trial of cases of treason and felony as redpresentatuive of the king. LL

bb1 wrote:Oh, I've just remembered something else - didn't some 'expert' announce that Richard ate a lot of fresh water fish, which was a delicacy then?

Because it wasn't. Did someone forget to tell the 'expert' that monasteries routinely had carp ponds - like medieval fish farms - and that was the supposed 'reformation' that wrecked all that?

England was, and still is part of a large island, and in those days fish would have been abundent.  All you  needed was a pole, some kind of string and bait.  Or you could, like my dad used to, catch fish by hand!    LL

The following fish were available during the Medieval era, even though many were looked upon with sheer distain, especially by the Upper Classes. The following list of fish were available during the Middle Ages:

   Herring
   Salmon
   Eel
   Whiting
   Turbot
   Plaice
   Cod
   Trout
   Pike
   Skate
   Oysters
   Crab
   Cockles
   Mussels

http://lordsandladies.org/index.htm

Surviving medieval fish pond in Wales:



'Experts' are a pain. I wonder if those 'experts' picked up a single book about medieval eating and drinking habits before they came out with that tosh?

Experts' are a pain. I wonder if those 'experts' picked up a single book about medieval eating and drinking habits before they came out with that tosh?

I doubt if any of them know anything about the 15th century let alone about kings and nobles.   Using 20thC criteria in relation to Richard is ridiculous.    LL

Did you watch any of the Tudor farm series, LL? It was set around 1500, so little would have changed in 15 years. Even the peasants ate - and drank - pretty well, though it was hard work. It was the Reformation that caused the damage, because it meant that when times were hard, though crop failure, or whatever, there was nothing for those at the bottom to fall back on, the structure of society had gone.

Never heard of it. bonny, but then I've only recently found a streaming site that lets me watch UK programs. Also I'm not that enamoured of anything to do with farming! LL    

Lamplighter wrote:

Experts' are a pain. I wonder if those 'experts' picked up a single book about medieval eating and drinking habits before they came out with that tosh?

I doubt if any of them know anything about the 15th century let alone about kings and nobles.   Using 20thC criteria in relation to Richard is ridiculous.    LL

Remember these are people with egos who want to have the lion's share of any production. So, they are going to waffle to make themselves look important even if they are talking BS, IMO. That is why the good stuff was shorter.

I haven't seen the program yet but trying to figure out why they spent time on the BS. I too know that what they talked about the food is nonsense. I even recall those dishes where they stuffed birds with smaller birds etc.

Did those people stop and think about the size of banqueting halls back then? Do they know why they were so large? Are they aware that members of the public would like to watch the court dine? Even I know that.......

Dr Angela Lamb, geochemist at the British Geological Survey

Anyone like to tell me what qualifications a geochemist has to do with a historical character. Geochemistry is the science that uses the tools and principles of chemistry to explain the mechanisms behind major geological systems such as the Earth's crust and its oceans. LL