Re: Death in the Middle East

**bb1** Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:16 pm

Death in the Middle East - Page 6 Article-2690359-1F9BE10B00000578-727_470x471

**Lamplighter** Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:23 pm

bb1 wrote:

As I said above, where the f**k are they going to go to? Gaza is as crowded as a S American favela, with very few amenities - and I understand the Israels are now threatening to cut off electricity and water supplies and stop all deliveries of food etc. LL

**bb1** Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:33 pm

What reaction does Israel expect to get, when they tell civilians soldiers are coming to destroy their homes and not to try and stop them, or the civilians will die too?

Especially when, as you say, there's nowhere for the civilians to go?

This is little more than genocide, IMO.

Also, one of these days, Israel is going to lose - they came damned close to it last time they tangled with Lebanon. They may have more high-tech weapons of destruction, but their footsoldiers aren't all that hot these days. I have little doubt that Israel stirs up trouble in neighbouring countries - it's in Israel's interests to keep Arab nations squabbling and divided.

History DOES repeat itself, and sooner or later, Israel will go the way of the crusaders. That will be truly horrible, because so many Arabs want revenge.

**Lamplighter** Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:57 pm

Remember the Ethiopean Jews who fled to Israel only to be denied their Jewishness? The Ethiopean Jews have practiced Judaism since the time when the Queen of Sheba visited Solomon. In order to stay in Israel the Ethiopeans had to attend school and learn their religion. The Israelis scream 'racist' the moment anyone says anything against them, but practice it against their very own. Even in their religion, the orthodox and ultra orthodox consider that all other branches, ie reform, conservative etc are not true Jews. LL

**bb1** Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:10 pm

From CNN:

A day after the cease-fire appeal, Israeli forces briefly entered Gaza early Sunday and raided a missile launching site.
This is the first time Israeli forces have acknowledged they've entered Gaza in the current conflict.
During the incursion, which lasted about half an hour, both sides exchanged gunfire at the launch site, an Israeli military source said.
Four Israeli troops suffered light injuries, but all the soldiers returned home safely, the source said.
The source declined to comment on whether the mission achieved its objective.

As there's been no crowing from Tel Aviv about their great victory against 'terrorists', I rather suspect they got chased back where they came from?

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:00 am

The bombardment continues. From:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israeli-raids-gaza-enter-seventh-day-201471404755245120.html

[video]

Israel has hit the Gaza Strip with air strikes and artillery fire on the seventh day of its offensive and as diplomatic efforts to halt the bloodshed intensified.

Aircraft struck three training facilities of Hamas's military wing, the Qassam Brigades, around the coastal territory early on Monday, but caused no casualties, medics and eyewitnesses said.

They also hit buildings in Gaza City, Deir el-Balah in the southern part of the strip, and in the northern town of Jabaliya, injuring an unspecified number of people.

There was shelling reported in Beit Lahiya, in the far north of the strip, where Israel had earlier warned residents of an impending assault.

World powers prepared to meet over the spiralling violence as the Palestinian death toll from the Israeli air campaign hit 172 with another 1,230 people wounded, the emergency services said.

Fearing for their lives, about 17,000 people have taken shelter in installations of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, the agency said in a statement.

As the death toll rose, the Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said most of the victims were civilians, putting their number at more than 130, among them 35 children and 26 women.

It also said Israel had destroyed 147 homes and badly damaged hundreds of others.

It may be a straw in the wind that, after all the macho talk from Tel Aviv, Israeli soldiers haven't - so far - gone into Gaza, they have just carried on with their cowardly bombing campaign, shooting Palestinian fish in the Gaza barrel.

There are suspicions that the much-vaunted Israeli army came off second best when it tangled with men with guns over the weekend, just as it did in the course of the last affray with Lebanon.

Time will tell.

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:04 am

A reminder of the land Israel has helped itself to over the past few years:

Death in the Middle East - Page 6 045-0122085619-palestine-territory

I wonder, how would Texan ranchers react if Mexicans tried to throw them off their land because some distant relative supposedly lived there in past centuries?

**Lamplighter** Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:07 am

The Israeli army is made up of conscripts - every Israeli, both male and female, has to do national service, at least the ordinary people do, but not the studiers of the Torah, ie the Hasadim and ultra orthodox, and as many armies have found out it is usually the conscripts who are the most trouble. Look at the Wehrmacht in WW2, their conscripts often defected or were shot down as they ran from the Soviets. The whole matter of how good the Israeli army is will depend on how much the people believe the government. LL

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:30 am

Also, remember this is a very different generation of Israelis, LL. This isn't their grandparents, who had survived Hell on earth and were fighting for their own small kibbutz - and won the admiration of the world.

No, this is the twittering, LOL-ing, FB generation, that think war is like their stupid video games. They tend to be great at steering drones and using similar shiny toys, but useless when faced with real blood being shed, especially if it's theirs.

I've seen some young Israelis being interviewed, and they are, well, vacuous and spoiled. I also noticed that when their government spokesmen, especially the military, were asked difficult questions, they were simply lost.

On a more level playing field, I suspect Israel would be in real trouble, because the LOL-ers are likely to run, and not stop running until they're on a plane out of Israel and back in some Starbucks with their smartphones.

**Lamplighter** Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:52 pm

London demonstrators denounce Netanyahu as ‘Hitler’s clone’
Jordanians urge expulsion of Israeli envoy as international protests against Israel’s attacks in Gaza gather steam

Read more: London demonstrators denounce Netanyahu as 'Hitler's clone' | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/international-protests-against-israel-gather-steam/#ixzz37RkyuroQ
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Thousands of pro-Palestinian demonstrators massed outside the Israeli embassy in London on Saturday, calling for an end to “Israeli aggression” against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

As Operation Protective Edge entered its fifth day, similar gatherings took place outside the parliament building in Oslo and the Quai d’Orsay, home of the French Foreign Ministry, in Paris, Channel 10 reported.

According to the UK’s Daily Mail website, protesters jammed the British capital’s Kensington High Street, and some of the demonstrators stood on one of the city’s red double-decker buses. Signs held aloft by those gathered in protest read: “Gaza: End the Siege” and “Freedom for Palestine,” and one of the more than dozen protesters atop the bus held a sign which said, “Judaism rejects the Zionist state and condemns its criminal siege and occupation.”

Others decried the “Palestinian Holocaust” and called Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu a “rabid evil mass murderer; Hitler’s clone.”

Israel Radio reported that hundreds of Jordanians took to the streets of Amman demanding the expulsion of the Israeli ambassador to the Hashemite Kingdom. They called for Arab states to intervene to protect the inhabitants of Gaza. Some 2,000 residents of Tunisia, mostly of the Islamist party, shouted support for Hamas and waved Palestinian flags, and hundreds of Palestinians in Lebanon protested the war against Hamas, the radio report said.

Death in the Middle East - Page 6 Article-2689465-1F94381A00000578-469_634x389

At least 17 people climbed on top of the London bus during the protest, with one holding a banner which read: 'Judaism rejects the Zionist state and condemns its criminal siege and occupation'

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:03 pm

I was glad to see some ultra-orthodox (I think that's the correct term?) Jews demonstrating against Israeli policy as well in London, LL.

**Lamplighter** Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Rabbis condemn Abu Khdeir killing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4539515,00.html

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:38 pm

Thanks, LL, interesting. Not least because moderate Muslims are saying the very same things, and getting similar abuse from extremists for saying it.

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:16 pm

http://rt.com/news/171320-gaza-hamas-israel-rockets/

Fierce rocket fire exchange is continuing between Israeli armed forces and Hamas, which has claimed the lives of more than 150 Palestinians. Israel is bracing itself for a “ground offensive,” calling up 40,000 army reservists.

Monday, July 14
19:11 GMT:
Five people were killed in an Israeli airstrike on Gaza, raising the death toll from the week-long offensive to 184, medics said, as quoted by AFP.

Three people were killed in southern Rafah, including a four-year-old child. Two people were killed in Khan Yunis, said emergency services spokesman Ashraf al-Qudra.

This surpasses the death toll of the 2012 Operation Pillar of Defense, which claimed 177 Palestinian lives, according to IDF.

19:09 GMT:
Egypt has launched the initiative for a truce between Israel and Gaza which will start Tuesday at 6 a.m. GMT, AFP reported.

Let's hope that's true, and that if so, both sides stop the fighting.

**bb1** Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:17 pm

Same link:

18:20 GMT:
The US warned Monday against an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza, saying it would put even more civilians at risk. But Washington stopped short of criticizing Israel for the mounting civilian death toll in Gaza, saying that the Israelis have the "right" and "responsibility" to defend their citizens.

That's an interesting turn of events.

**bb1** Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:40 am

On the cease-fire:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/israel-approves-truce-plan-but-hamas-rejects-201471561829475561.html

In brief, it seems Israel accepts it, but Hamas is reluctant to unless the blockade is lifted.

**Lamplighter** Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:55 pm

http://www.punchng.com/news/gaza-conflict-israel-restarts-bombardment/

Gaza conflict: Israel restarts bombardment
July 15, 2014 by BBC

Israel has resumed its air strikes on Gaza after its brief ceasefire was met with continuing rocket fire.

Israel had earlier accepted an Egyptian truce proposal for the conflict and stopped operations on Tuesday morning.

However, the armed wing of Hamas, which controls Gaza, rejected the initiative as a “surrender”.

Palestinian officials say at least 192 people have been killed by Israeli air strikes launched eight days ago to stop militants firing rockets into Israel.

At least four Israelis have been seriously injured since the violence flared, but none have been killed.

The Israeli Defence Forces said about 50 rockets had been fired into Israel during the six hours it had halted air strikes on Tuesday.

At least two new targets in Gaza have been struck by Israeli air strikes.

Under the terms of the Egyptian initiative, the ceasefire should have been followed by a series of meetings in Cairo with high-level delegations from the two sides.

**bb1** Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:01 pm

I've been reading a bit about the terms of the 'ceasefire', LL - they seemed to come down to Israel carrying on doing as it pleases.

No release of the hundreds of Palestinians that were rounded up a couple of weeks back, nothing. I don't think Israel is going to be happy until it's wiped out every Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank.

**Lamplighter** Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:30 pm

Israel and its settlers have been trying to create lebensraum by expelling the indigenous people of the Gaza and the other Occupied territories. It parallels the Nazis' attempts to subjugate the Soviet lands, Poland and the other Eastern European countries as a new homeland for the German people. There is no difference between Netanyahu and certain other dictators, he is doing exactly the same thing to the Palestinians as he belabors the Germans over. Well, he may find his chickens come home to roost with vengeance. LL

**bb1** Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:34 pm

Israel will be unable to hold down Palestine by force forever, LL, it simply can't be done, especially when so much of their military superiority relies on technology, not people. They've been spanked already at fighting on the ground, and the lack of 'victory' propaganda rather suggests it happened again a few days ago on Gaza beach.

**Lamplighter** Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:32 pm

bb1 wrote:Israel will be unable to hold down Palestine by force forever, LL, it simply can't be done, especially when so much of their military superiority relies on technology, not people. They've been spanked already at fighting on the ground, and the lack of 'victory' propaganda rather suggests it happened again a few days ago on Gaza beach.

The thing I feel troubled over is that Israel DOES have nuclear weapons and all it requires is a madman to decide enough is enough and the Mid East gets nuked and thousands die in agony. Also there is no way the Hamas fighters can stand up against tanks and the Israelis have a hell of a lot of those, and ballistic missiles. LL

**bb1** Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:40 pm

Tanks are very vulnerable if they're used in urban warfare, LL, they can't maneuvre and can easily become sitting ducks (see Stalingrad, Berlin, etc).

But yes, I agree, it is indeed a worry that some madman could set a nuke off. I don't know, does Israel have battlefield nukes, rather than the ICBM-type?

**Lamplighter** Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:53 pm

bb1 wrote:Tanks are very vulnerable if they're used in urban warfare, LL, they can't maneuvre and can easily become sitting ducks (see Stalingrad, Berlin, etc).

But yes, I agree, it is indeed a worry that some madman could set a nuke off. I don't know, does Israel have battlefield nukes, rather than the ICBM-type?

Nobody seems to know exactly what they have other than the US who supplied them, I understand. And tanks are far more sophisticated than the ones used in WW2, lighter and far more manoeuvreable with very sophisticated guidance systems and armament. LL.

**Lamplighter** Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:51 am

The death toll in Gaza has passed 200, in Israel just one dead. And Netanyahu is stepping up the attacks, he has no intention of keeping to a ceasefire, of course it's Hamas' fault, not his. LL.

16 July 2014 Last updated at 07:25 GMT

Israel warns Gazans to leave homes as air strikes continue
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28320901

**bb1** Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:01 am

I'm disgusted by Israel, LL. How many Palestinian deaths are going to be enough for them - or are they not going to stop till they've killed every Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank? This isn't 'defending yourself', this is state terrorism.

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