Re: MALAYSIAN AIRLINER 'SHOT DOWN' OVER UKRAINE

**bb1** Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:21 pm

http://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin/

Putin: Taskforce at Malaysia MH17 crash site not enough, full-scale team of intl experts needed
Published time: July 20, 2014 21:42 Get short URL

The tragic Malaysian MH17 flight crash must not be politicised and the international experts on the scene should be able to carry out their work in complete safety, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

“There are already representatives of Donetsk and Lugansk working there, as well as representatives of the emergencies ministry of Ukraine and others. But this is not enough,” Putin said officially commenting on the tragic event on Sunday.

“This task force is not enough,” Putin emphasized. “We need more, we need a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of ICAO, the relevant international commission.”

“In the meantime, nobody should and has no right to use this tragedy to achieve their ‘narrowly selfish’ political goals,” Putin stated.

“We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and sit down at the negotiating table,” the President reminded. “I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.”

“We must do everything to provide security for the international experts on the site of the tragedy,” Putin stressed, adding that Russia will also do everything in its power to help shift the Ukrainian conflict from a military phase into a political discussion.

“We need to do everything to provide its [ICAO commission’s] safety, to provide the humanitarian corridors necessary for its work,” Putin added.

DETAILS TO FOLLOW

Doesn't sound to me like Russia has anything to hide.

**greenink211** Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:41 am

The proof of the pudding regarding Russian actions will come in the open debate at the UNSC this evening. Should Russia veto the proposals to allow the investigators immediate access to the site and the bringing to justice of those responsible for the 'downing' of the aircraft then their motives should be seriously questioned.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:14 am

I am still curious as to why Kiev announced it was a Buk missile almost as soon as the wreckage hit the ground, and since then has been churning out badly-faked videos to 'prove' Russia dun it.

The old saying about the one that points and shrieks first and loudest after incidents and crimes often being the culprit should not be forgotten. For all we actually know, it wasn't a missile but a jet fighter.

Time will tell, hopefully without any 'help' from the CIA and other alphabet agencies.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:25 am

Or from Sky news.

MALAYSIAN AIRLINER 'SHOT DOWN' OVER UKRAINE - Page 5 Article-2699229-1FD3ED5D00000578-764_634x545

Shameful! Sky man rifles through case: Fury over reporter's insensitivity at crash site targeted by looters

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699229/Sky-News-apologises-reporter-rifles-luggage-MH17-victims-live-air.html#ixzz3866HzZRd
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**greenink211** Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:13 pm

bb1 wrote:I am still curious as to why Kiev announced it was a Buk missile almost as soon as the wreckage hit the ground, and since then has been churning out badly-faked videos to 'prove' Russia dun it.

The old saying about the one that points and shrieks first and loudest after incidents and crimes often being the culprit should not be forgotten. For all we actually know, it wasn't a missile but a jet fighter.

Time will tell, hopefully without any 'help' from the CIA and other alphabet agencies.

I am not qualified to judge on the reliability or otherwise of the videos I've seen. I am not surprised that there were reports within minutes of the downing of the plane though, because it was obviously seen for miles around and the very idea of bodies raining down on a village would be dramatic enough for any government to comment within a very short period.

I am still appalled that the rebels have been allowed by Putin (who could have influenced them behind the scenes if he did not wish to do so in full view of the world) to allow the site to be put under the jurisdiction of international observers at worst within 24 hours. His claims that there are no international investigators is frankly ridiculous. They are there and have been prevented from accessing the site by the rebels he has armed and sponsored.

As for the original cause of the Ukrainian crisis, the Russian line that this was the evil, expansionist EU at fault is a long way off the truth. It was Ukrainians who approached the EU and asked for membership. It was the EU who refused such membership and offered an associate status. No country has been invited to membership of the EU, no country has been invaded by the EU no matter how desperate they have been to join. That cannot be said of Russia who took over in recent months territory belonging to a sovereign neighbouring state.

No politicians; not the Americans, the Europeans or the Russians are telling the full truth. Our western press clearly has little incentive to tell the people the truth but in Russia there is absolutely no freedom to do so. They don't even have a credible version of Private Eye to occasionally nibble at the truth. We should not rely on statements of any of them but judge them on their actions.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:28 pm

The same applies here as applies to the Israeli meme that Hamas are using civilians as human shield, Greenink.

Israel has not, as far as I am aware, produced a shred of evidence of this. Neither has Kiev produced a shred of evidence that Putin is sponsoring rebels.

The cause of this violence is not Russia or the EU. It is directly traceable to Washington, with Victoria Nuland and her damned cookies playing the role of Gavrilo Pricip.

So, you'll forgive me if I don't instantly believe stories from the bunch of murderous thugs in Kiev installed by a US-backed coup. And please don't tell me the US wouldn't do that to suit their own interests, they've been doing it for decades. Ukraine has followed a similar pattern to Chile.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:34 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

A step-by-step guide to causing chaos and bloodshed, the CIA way.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:43 pm

Even after General Lemnitzer lost his job as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Joint Chiefs of Staff still planned false-flag pretext operations at least into 1963. A different U.S. Department of Defense policy paper created in 1963 discussed a plan to make it appear that Cuba had attacked a member of the Organization of American States (OAS) so that the United States could retaliate. The U.S. Department of Defense document says of one of the scenarios, "A contrived 'Cuban' attack on an OAS member could be set up, and the attacked state could be urged to take measures of self-defense and request assistance from the U.S. and OAS."

The plan expressed confidence that by this action, "the U.S. could almost certainly obtain the necessary two-thirds support among OAS members for collective action against Cuba."[17][18]

Included in the nations the Joint Chiefs suggested as targets for covert attacks were Jamaica and Trinidad-Tobago. Since both were members of the British Commonwealth, the Joint Chiefs hoped that by secretly attacking them and then falsely blaming Cuba, the United States could incite the people of the United Kingdom into supporting a war against Castro.[17] As the U.S. Department of Defense report noted:

Any of the contrived situations described above are inherently, extremely risky in our democratic system in which security can be maintained, after the fact, with very great difficulty. If the decision should be made to set up a contrived situation it should be one in which participation by U.S. personnel is limited only to the most highly trusted covert personnel. This suggests the infeasibility of the use of military units for any aspect of the contrived situation."[17]

The U.S. Department of Defense report even suggested covertly paying a person in the Castro government to attack the United States: "The only area remaining for consideration then would be to bribe one of Castro's subordinate commanders to initiate an attack on [the U.S. Navy base at] Guantanamo."[17]

**greenink211** Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:47 pm

bb1 wrote:I am still curious as to why Kiev announced it was a Buk missile almost as soon as the wreckage hit the ground, and since then has been churning out badly-faked videos to 'prove' Russia dun it.

The old saying about the one that points and shrieks first and loudest after incidents and crimes often being the culprit should not be forgotten. For all we actually know, it wasn't a missile but a jet fighter.

Time will tell, hopefully without any 'help' from the CIA and other alphabet agencies.

I suspect the Gerashenko Facebook message timed at 18.20 which is what you refer to as "Kiev" as that is the only report from Kiev "almost as soon as the wreckage hit the ground" referred to in news reports. It doesn't surprise me that it was posted so quickly as I have no doubt the origin of the story was the Rebel leader, Streikhov's FB announcement (support site or real site doesn't matter regarding this point) that they had shot down a plane just thirty minutes earlier.

MH17 disappeared off radar at 17.15.

The Streikhov FB post with the videos claiming that an Antonov had been shot down was posted at 17.50. That FB post carried a video which can easily, I am sure, be timed for upload to Youtube and can be accurately located as to where it was filmed. Shortly afterwards the Facebook message was removed and the rebels claimed that it was a fans site made by rebels not a site owned by the specific rebel commander. But that video was in the post by Gerashenko on FB at 18.20 which suggests that he may well have picked up the Streikhov message as confirmation of the Rebel's actions.

I have, personally, no idea who is telling the truth but I am not prepared to accept the word of the rebels who are conveniently now claiming it is just a fan site and have apparently started a new Streikhov page on FB.

Nor do I lay the blame for everything at the feet of the Americans. We will never know the full truth but I am sure the the Rebels and their backers (the Russians who clearly have given them Russian military hardware) and the Ukrainians (with US backing) are at least both partly to blame. Who bears the most blame will never be known.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:09 pm

As Russian Defence is right now releasing a vast amount of data from satellites and radar, this might be a good time for the western media to stop the hysteria and let experts do some number crunching. Presently, the media is acting like those morons that lynched poor little Dachshunds 100 years ago for being 'German dogs'.

At the very least, it would seem to confirm that eye-witnesses that saw/heard a fighter jet near the doomed plane were correct.

But as I know nothing about satellite data, etc., I will let people who do, interpret it.

**greenink211** Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:34 pm

I can know more judge whether satellite data has been doctored than I can judge if videos are faked by experts.

All I know is that believing that either the Russians or Americans and their puppets in the region are telling the truth is as daft as believing in conspiracy stories.

It has always been the same. There were people in the UK fully aware during WWII that the media were lying to them about what was going on abroad and they could do nothing about it. We are aware that we are being lied to and can do nothing about it.

Unless one is fully aware of who contributes to web sites and blogs then there is no logic in relying on them either. Even live video broadcasts can be very deceptive. Many years ago I was in central London shopping when a particular event took place. I was on screen at one point looking on at the event and a relative who spotted me started her VHS recorder. When I eventually saw the footage I hardly recognised the scene. The march I had briefly watched was said to be blocking the entire centre of London. It wasn't. The video camera was angled to suggest that the entire road was blocked but in fact only one side of the road was and traffic could pass on the other.

We never know the full truth about anything and if we spent too much time pondering on that fact we would go as mad as the lunatics on the Icke site.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:44 pm

Which is pretty much my point, Greenink. If the McCann case has taught us anything, it should be the folly of jumping to conclusions, finger-pointing - and trusting the media and internet. The internet war over Gaza is evidence of that.

And ALL governments lie for their own ends and use propaganda.

Vast quantities of data have now been released to the wide world and all interested parties in this disaster. If it's been faked or interfered with, then people that understand these things, and have no axe to grind, will spot it pretty quickly, and want to know why. I hope the US releases similar data - it's bound to have it.

Until more is known, the media here and elsewhere really should stop behaving so irresponsibly, though that's probably too much to hope for.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:56 pm

“A buildup of extraordinary circumstantial evidence … it’s powerful here,” U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said, pushing the narrative that Russia was involved.

Yes, just like WMDs in Iraq and 'gas attacks' in Syria. And fake 'lists'. Obama's come out with a load of hot air and...blethers, but nothing resembling a verifiable FACT.

Certainly no reams of data from satellites and radar.

He also seems to be a bit behind the situation on the ground, not that that's unusual for him.

**lily** Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:04 pm

Why this rush to everything all the time? Better to take time and come to the correct conclusion. mad

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:19 pm

My sentiments precisely, Lily. Some of the Russian data released earlier is here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

plus a video with translation which is half an hour long. I am not even going to attempt to understand it, I will leave that to experts and air crash investigators.

But it's a pity Obama hadn't done something similar, instead of hot air and soundbytes.

**lily** Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:41 pm

That's very, very interesting Bonny. Plausible too....

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:50 pm

I am sure qualified experts, accident investigators, etc., will know how accurate it is. Purely my own opinion, but I suspect it is accurate and untampered, or it wouldn't have been released to the entire world for them to judge. I don't think Russia would take the chance of being caught fudging data, on top of everything else.

We may be seeing a repeat of the 'Syrian gas attack', when Russia knew what had actually happened, and just left the west to dig itself into a hole?

I personally find it especially reprehensible that so much propaganda has been churned out by the western media which can only add to the pain of the bereaved families.

The worst example is that Ukrainian guy holding up the black and white toy, which has gone around the world as 'looting'. In the full clip, the man picks up the toy, says how horrible the disaster is, takes his hat off, crosses himself and puts the toy back.

I really don't like much of the world a lot just now.

**lily** Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:13 pm

I'll join you in that, Bonny. Crying or Very sad

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:44 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1304948/un-demands-safe-access-to-plane-crash-site

The UN Security Council has adopted a resolution condemning the downing of flight MH17 and demanding armed groups allow safe and unrestricted access to the crash site.

The resolution, drafted by Australia, also demands those responsible for the crash be held to account and calls for an international investigation into the tragedy in eastern Ukraine in which all 298 people on board died.

The backing by the 15-member council comes as the remains of 282 of the victims are being taken in refrigerated carriages on a train from the rebel-held town of Torez to the government-controlled city of Kharkiv.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28399670

20:39: The UN Security Council has unanimously passed the Australian resolution. It demands an end to military activity, insists the victims' bodies be treated respectfully, and calls for the provision of safe access to the crash site.

20:40: Russia voted for the UN resolution.

**bb1** Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:38 pm

http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/

19:14 GMT:
The United Nations Security Council unanimously approved a resolution, introduced by Australia, demanding international access to the eastern Ukraine crash site of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17.

Russia did not move to block UNSC Resolution 2166.
"We have been engaged very actively today with the Australian delegation. The Security Council has already pronounced itself in its press statement on the 18th, it said it must be impartial international investigation. That's what we are looking for in the resolution, if this is impartial, international investigation, of course we are going to support it,” Russia's Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin told reporters before the vote.

The full draft resolution condemned the disaster, called for immediate access to the crash site and demanded an independent investigation.

21:26 GMT:
The Netherlands has agreed to take the lead role in the investigation of the Malaysia Airlines plane, the country’s Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans said at the UN Security Council meeting, reports Itar-Tass. Dutch investigators will work in close cooperation with other countries, the UN, and ICAO.

**bb1** Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:09 am

Where the Hell does the US state department get these bimbos from? I've just seen one called 'Marie Harf'; unbelievably, she's even dumber than Psaki. Are they all sleeping with Kerry, or something - Harf looks and sounds as if she would find cleaning a budgie cage challenging.

MALAYSIAN AIRLINER 'SHOT DOWN' OVER UKRAINE - Page 5 %D9%85%D8%A7%D9%8A-%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%81-550x330

MALAYSIAN AIRLINER 'SHOT DOWN' OVER UKRAINE - Page 5 %D9%85%D8%A7%D9%8A-%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%81-550x330

Harf.

**bb1** Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:48 am

If anyone still doesn't believe that Western opinion is being manipulated, I suggest they take the time to find what the international observers that got caught in the middle of all this are actually saying, not what the media is claiming they said.

As something resembling order has now been restored, the black boxes have been handed over safely to Malaysia, and the dead are on their way to Holland, I would not be in the least surprised if Kiev now bombed the crash site 'by accident'.

And if people watch this video at just after a minute in:

They will see that the Ukrainian man that has been smeared all over the world as a 'looter' was, in fact, deeply upset that children had died in the crash, wanted the world to see that children had been killed, and was acting respectfully.

The media appears to be taking its lead from 1984 and Hate Week. Previously, the wannabee Caliph of Baghdad was The Most Evil Man In The World and we were all supposed to hate him without asking questions. He's been forgotten about this week, replaced by Putin - or just about about anyone Russian - and we're all supposed to hate him without asking questions.

Who are we at war with this week, Eurasia or Eastasia?

**bb1** Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:35 pm

Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman told a press conference: ‘There is information the recorders were in their hands all these days and they did certain things to them.'
He did not elaborate where this information had come from, however.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2701145/Is-data-MH17s-black-box-USELESS-Readings-flight-recorders-wont-reveal-attack-experts-claim.html#ixzz38CE4SklA
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Obviously a graduate of the Amaral School Of Air Crash Investigation.

**bb1** Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Please note, the flight recorders are going to Farnborough, having gone through the nearest possible thing, under these circumstances, to a proper, recorded chain of custody:

http://news.sky.com/story/1305640/british-experts-to-examine-mh17-black-boxes

Air accident investigators based at Farnborough will examine the data from the black boxes of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

Prime Minister David Cameron confirmed the assistance on Twitter: "We've agreed Dutch request for air accident investigators at Farnborough to retrieve data from #MH17 black boxes for international analysis."

The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB), part of the Department for Transport, is based in the Hampshire town.

They are NOT in Moscow, as was being claimed by the crazies, and our lying tabloids. I am sure Farnborough can be trusted to get to the bottom of this, without any 'help' from the CIA, NSA, or any other spooks.

**lily** Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:23 pm

The lies coming from here are absolutely appalling. mad

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