The Eurozone Thread

[bb1]

It seems to be awfully important, so I thought we had better have a thread about it.



Call me silly, but why don't they just go back to having their own countries? IMO, it was always a stupid idea.

[Sabot]

I have no idea what is going on. The Exchange Rate is still as abysmal as it has been for the last three years, so obviously The Euro is doing okay against The Pound.
God knows what that means, but I can't see France or Germany giving it up.

[bb1]

I don't really understand it either, Sabot - can't France and Germany be the eurozone, and leave other countries to sort their own economies out?

It was a crazy idea, and I'm not surprised it went t*ts up; all it has going for it to the man in the street seems to that you only have to change sterling into boring euros, not interesting stuff like lira, francs, escudos, pesetas, etc.

[Sabot]

I have just been through the Euros in my pocket and I have Euros from six different countries. How do you sort that out?
France and Germany alone? God knows. Basically it was a good idea, but it seems to me that some countries just took the piss and got themselves into debt knowing that they would be bailed out. And some of them should never have been allowed to join in the first place.

[bb1]

A great many people are finding it galling that the UK is having to pay to bail them out, Sabot, as we aren't even a member of the eurozone.

[Sabot]

A great many people are finding it galling that the UK is having to pay to bail them out, Sabot, as we aren't even a member of the eurozone.

I understand that, Bonny, but Britain joined the monetary fund in some way or another, and Britain has been only too happy to accept rebates and subsidies.
They should have gone the whole hog or stayed out altogether. Personally I think they should have stayed out altogether.

[bb1]

I don't understand most of it, Sabot, I freely admit. But I have no doubt that it is ordinary people who will end up paying for the mess, while the people who created it get richer.

[bb1]

[bb1]

She did, too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/8851912/Merkel-wins-rescue-fund-vote-after-raising-spectre-of-war.html

[rhodes]

yep, I seen that today as well and did the same as you

[rhodes]

but then again, there was 50 years of (relative) peace BEFORE the euro was introduced, so is she engaging in some scaremongering?

[bb1]

Well, considering who it was who started the last two wars....what's she going to do if she doesn't get her own way, invade Poland?

[rhodes]

Well, considering who it was who started the last two wars....what's she going to do if she doesn't get her own way, invade Poland?

possibly, but loads of the Polish are here....................

[Sabot]

She did, too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/8851912/Merkel-wins-rescue-fund-vote-after-raising-spectre-of-war.html

Her and whose Army?

[Lamplighter]

I expect to be jumped on here but she did NOT say what the anti-European UK Media claimed. She said that what could happen is monetary or economic warfare, NOT military warfare. And she may well be right; there are countries in the Eurozone who have got deep into debt, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, and now probably Italy, Spain and maybe Portugal. The Greeks have admitted that their tax system is laughable, most of the rich don't pay anywhere near the amount they should; the Brits may grumble over the PAYE system but it does at least ensure that the majority of people do pay tax, though the rich can get away with it using offshore banks. Other countries have allowed the debts among their citizens to rise to unmentionable heights; the credit card companies, the bank and loan companies have encouraged people to borrow way beyond their means; an example in the UK was when mortgage companies were happily handing out cash 3/4/5/6 times the amount earned by the applicants. So, in the long run, why should countries who have managed their fiscal policies, who have become wealthy like Germany has by ensuring people pay their taxes etc. bail out those profligate countries whose attitude seems to be spend, spend, spend?

The UK were right to stay out of the Eurozone at least until it could be shown that it was a benefit to one and all; the rush to join something that had not been thought out properly was quite unseemly. And blaming today's politicians for something set up long before they were in power is rather stupid; the Eurozone rules require consensus from all members of it AND the European members, it cannot be changed overnight. Until you can get all the members to agree, and believe me that is going to be one hell of a hard slog, the Euro, the banks and defaulting countries will continue to sink deeper into the mire. I can understand the need for a common currency when trading with fellow members across borders, but I can see no need to insist that countries actually drop their original internal fiscal policies or their currencies for a single one. I am no economist, but if I could see the problems when the Euro was suggested and then implemented, how come those supposedly knowledgable in such matters could not see the piutfalls?

There, rant over, I shall now collect the JD and go Lamplighter

[Sabot]

I tend to agree with you, but they ain't going to give up The Euro without a fight.

[Lamplighter]

I tend to agree with you, but they ain't going to give up The Euro without a fight.

No, Sabot, that they ain't, but unless they all sit down and stop taking sides, the 17 in the €uro and the 10 outside, I really can't see anything good coming of all this. Like the UK we are not in the Euro here, and the government keeps putting entry off; I do have bank accounts in Austria and Germany, so I don't have to worry about exchange rate, and I still have my UK Nationwide account. I have always wondered whether the UK antipathy to the EU stems from when de Gaulle refused membership; I think it still rankles with some of the older people, and the ageing politicos, that the UK was okay for helping beat the enemy but not for anything else, probably most of the youngsters protesting don't even know that the UK wasn't wanted. But the UK cannot 'go it alone'; it no longer has an empire, its commonwealth may be diminished even further if the Aussies do declare a republic, and from what I have heard said over the years, many commonwealth countries felt rebuffed when the UK joined Europe, they were being abandoned by the 'mother'. It would take some very hard work to get back into the books of some of the old colonial countries. Many pay lip service to the Crown, but I am sure most of them would be more than happy to jettison the commonwealth as it stands, but still honour the Queen. It's a real quagmire, isn't it? LL

[Sabot]

The UK did have the invitation and the right to join at the outset, but they declined. Later when they had second thoughts and tried to reopen negotiations DeGalle told them to push off, and I can't say I blamed him. The outset was the time for UK to join, not later after they had decided it might work after all. What with subsidies and such.

However, I have never been entirely convinced that UK has a European mind. Far too insular due to fate and history, which was not necessarily a bad idea. The EU needed Britain at the outset, so can anyone blame DeGalle for being pissed off. But "Needed" is the operative word. Good for the EU first, not necessarily good for Britain.
But Britain can't have it both ways, which is what they want.

[Lamplighter]

But Britain can't have it both ways, which is what they want.

That's what they always want! I wonder whether having ruled half the known world at one point, they haven't managed to throw off the inflated idea that they are totally indispensable; the world has moved on. Don't get me wrong; I am very proud of what Brand GB managed to do over hundreds of years, but all brands need to reinvent themselves, and Brand GB is, I think, due for a bit of a makeover - and that does not mean the kind of changes crackpots lile the EDP, BNP etc envisage!! LL

[bb1]

Be fair, LL, who could resist a headline like

GERMAN CHANCELLOR THREATENS WAR IN EUROPE

[Pedro Silva]

This is what I think:

about Greece: to act with vandalism to burn cars, to destroy shops or buildings, to have riots, to set fires, etc, that´s not the right way to solve the crisis in Greece.

yesterday I saw at the news that France and German wants to rule other countries, just because they may own the eurozone that doesn´t mean to force other countries to obey to their directives, and I hope that countries like Portugal, don´t obey to those two, to follow solutions to solve the eurozone problems it´s one thing, which every country should be united, to obey to rules of these two, it´s not good, because it is almost as if: you obey and not speak otherwise.

I hope that countries don´t obey to the rules of these two, because that´s not the right way to solve this issue.

The right way is (in my opinion of course) to follow solutions to solve the eurozone problems, which every country should be united. Governments should also release that more important to their travels abroad, it is much more important to solve issues such as this, or such as other issues.

One thing I believe (although perhaps it´s not easy to understand or do): every country should be encouraged to produce his own food supplies, to consume his own food supplies, to put in the market the products of that country at a reasonable price to increase the economic issue with a positive result to those who depends of the consume through citizens of their own country. But, easy to tell, perhaps a bit difficult to do because the EU directives don´t allow it.

Personally, I think it´s a huge stupidity from EU to establish the percentage of any kind food product (such as fish, agriculture products, etc) what any country should cultivate, then puts at the market other food products of other counties at a competitive price against the food products of the country itself, which causes people buying food products with a more competitive price, instead of achieving food products of their own country, and most of time the products of their own country are much better (in all sorts of aspects) then the products from EU. With this, people (farmers, fishermen, etc) who depends of these products to be bought by citizens of their own country, sees their products being bought (which increases the satisfaction of producers to produce more because citizens of their own countries prefers to consume products of it´s own country) instead of the same (or different products) from EU being bought just because they are more shining, with more competitive prices.

Every country should be encouraged to increase the consume ot their own food products.

My friends, you know what I mean with my comment.

[Sabot]

I don't know, LL. I think it might be a bit too late. Or it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I have sat on this side of The Channel for 20 years, and watched in horror, and it was bad enough when I left. Although what this has got to do with The EU I really don't know.
My already abysmal Pension is still beening decimated by the exchange rate, proving that someone vastly prefers The Euro to Sterling.
And if I didn't work I would be in serious financial difficulties. But I would still rather be here. So I am rooting for The Euro.

[bb1]

Pedro, that is an excellent post, the most sensible thing I have seen on the subject for a very long while.

The EU and its stupid directives about food have done untold damage to many industries, especially fishing, in the UK.

[Sabot]

Yes, Pedro, I know what you mean. Brittany constantly promotes it's own products, and I try to support them. fortunately, Brittany produces a huge amount. My allegiance is here now. France has been far more kind to me than Britain ever was, and I don't have to go begging for the small but important subsidies that are automatic because my income is so bad.
But fighting the cuts isn't helping at all. People have just got to stop borrowing. The problem is that they don't have any incentive to do so. What I can't afford, I manage without. Unheard of to so many people.

[Lamplighter]

What is sad is that a good idea, to make sure that war was never seen in Europe ever again, failed. There are too many disparate 'tribes' who have, over hundreds of years, fought often very nasty campaigns across each other's land, embroiling countries that did not want to be involved in costly consequences - and I mean in human lives - and things haven't really changed, have they? No fire-spitting weapons, just economic ones.
The answer to all this - who knows? Maybe the breakup of the EU, maybe financial infighting between the more prosperous nations? Not being a seer of the future, I cannot guess, nor am I prepared to try. LL

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