Re: The Eurozone Thread

[Lamplighter]

Greece shouldn't have joined euro but can survive crisis, says Sarkozy


French President Nicolas Sarkozy said Thursday it had been an error to admit Greece to the eurozone in 2001 but said he was confident the country could emerge from its debt crisis.

"It was an error because Greece entered with false (economic) figures.. it was not ready," he said during a nationally televised interview on the day European leaders clinched a deal to tackle the eurozone debt crisis.

But asked if he had confidence that Greece can emerge from the crisis, Sarkozy said: "Yes... we have no other choice".

The European deal will address the debt mountain in Greece, cutting it by 100 billion euros in an agreement between the eurozone and private creditor banks to take a 50 percent loss on their holdings.

"We had to face up to all this. If the euro had exploded last night, all of Europe would have exploded," Sarkozy said. "If Greece had defaulted, there would have been a domino effect carrying everyone away."

"If there had not been an agreement last night, it was not just Europe that would have sunk into catastrophe, it was the whole world," he said.

"We took important decisions yesterday that avoided catastrophe."

[Lamplighter]

Fir info more than anything else:

As of the 1st of January 2011, 17 members of the European Union use the Euro.

The 11 that do not are:

United Kingdom
Armenia
Bulgaria
Czech Rep.
Denmark
Hungary
Latvia
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Sweden

Poland and Hungary are very sceptical, both countries have moved back their entry dates until about 2018, though it is not certain if they will ever join. LL

[Pedro Silva]

Thank you for telling us LL.

[bb1]

Yes, thanks LL, I hadn't realised so many had stayed out - the impression is sometimes given that the UK is the only major hold-out.

[Lamplighter]

It was an error because Greece entered with false (economic) figures.

How very interesting. Merkel makes a remark that sends everyone into a tizzwazz, yes, I know, it was translated as a possible call to WW3!! while Sarkosy calls the Greeks liars over their false EU entry figures and says they wouldn't have been accepted on his watch - and nobody even blinks! Are, but the Germans are the enemy, while the French used to be the enemy!!!! Sorry, but to me that smacks of double standards; but who am I to comment, just a European in the centre of Europe, glad not to be in the Eurozone!! LL
{quietly retires to and get plastered on JD!!}

[bb1]

That remark of Merkel's was beyond foolish, LL - the Greek press were carrying photoshopped pictures of her head on Hitler's body yesterday. In full uniform.

Whatever she meant, how it is being seen is a catastrophe. Thing is, the nations of Europe are never happier than when they are insulting each other - just look at the jokes which appear at the World Cup, etc.

One thing they can all agree on, however, is that German Chancellors stamping their hooves and talking about any kind of war to get their own way is never good.

Remember, Greece were threatening to sue Germany to get their looted gold back? IMO, the euro is doomed.

[Sabot]

The Exchange Rate is even worse today. For me, that is. The Euro is still strong against The Pound.

[Lamplighter]

The Greeks should actually be thanking the Germans for again bailing them out; your average Herman the German is not at all happy with the situation or the remedy. They don't see why, every time someone gets into difficulties, it's the Germans at the front with the cash. Most would actually like to be out of the Euro. Personally, I would have liked the see the Greeks sink; they did the spend, spend, spend routine, not anyone else, though it does look like the Italians and Spanish were on the same path, though they don't seem to have falsified the books. Luckily, though the Brits also did the same thing (one remembers those high mortgage offers and the unasked for credit limit raises), being outside the Euro is a blessing, not a curse. Meanwhile all this turmoil means that our exchange rate against sterling is very good, six months ago it was about 290 to the £, now it is 345. I don't want the UK in the Euro, or here for that matter, happy to keep the status quo for as long as possible! LL

[bb1]

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16098004

Cameron: City Is Under Attack From Europe

The Prime Minister David Cameron has said London's financial sector is under assault from European Union rules and regulations.

In his first comments since Wednesday's eurozone crisis summit, Mr Cameron said the City was coming under increasing pressure, and required protection.
"London is the centre of financial services in Europe. It's under constant attack through Brussels directives," he said.
"It's an area of concern, it's a key national interest that we need to defend."
The Prime Minister added that Britain and other European nations who don't use the euro must work together to protect their national interests amid sweeping changes in the eurozone.

With the 17 eurozone nations likely head towards great economic integration, Tory eurosceptics have warned the bloc of nations could "gang up" - described as caucusing.
"There are a lot of things the eurozone is doing together. Having more meetings alone, establishing machinery - it raises the question of could there be caucusing?" said Mr Cameron.
And in a clear message to the European Commission that it had a duty to ensure fair operations across the board, he added: "It is very important that the institutions of the 27 are properly looked after and that the commission does its job as the guardian of the 27."
The Prime Minister's comments appeared to be the latest sign that infighting is breaking out among the European nations, and came as France's president Nicolas Sarkozy hit out at Greece.
In a television interview, he said it was a mistake to allow the country into the eurozone.

Mr Sarkozy claimed Greece was not ready for membership when it joined in 2001, and used false economic figures to gain entry.
He likened Greece's sovereign debt crisis to the crisis at Lehman Brothers, and said a failure to come up with a way to help them would have thrown the eurozone and world economy into disorder.
But the president added he was confident the country could emerge from its debt crisis, thanks to the deal reached by EU leaders early on Thursday morning.
Meanwhile, it has been suggested China could come to the rescue of the eurozone by contributing around $100bn to its bailout fund.
Two senior advisers to the Chinese government told the Financial Times it was "very likely" to put money into the European Financial Stability Fund (EFSF).

===============================

Marvellous! The EU is shaping up to split down the middle, and China will 'own' a chunk of it.

Meanwhile, a reminder of the Italian parliament calmly and solemnly discussing austerity measures a couple of days ago:



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/2011/10/27/italian-parliament-reduced-to-mass-brawl-over-pension-reforms-115875-23518783/

[bb1]

I don't want the UK in the Euro, or here for that matter, happy to keep the status quo for as long as possible

I can't see anyone rushing to join the euro now, LL?

[Lamplighter]

I don't want the UK in the Euro, or here for that matter, happy to keep the status quo for as long as possible

I can't see anyone rushing to join the euro now, LL?

Not us or the Poles, or for that matter the Danes or the Lithuanians. The Austrians ain't too happy either, from what my relatives have been saying. in fact, the Austrians have bugged the system, at least in Vienna, where all goods are marked up in Euros AND schillings, something the EU wanted to stop when a country joined. Even in Germany you can see items marked up in Deutschmarks and Euros. It was never really going to work, bonny, too many tribes, affiliations and diverse ideas to start off with, and the common currency was a no-go right from the beginning. Shame really, as any system that would stop Europeans fighting each other is a good idea!! LL

[bb1]

Shame really, as any system that would stop Europeans fighting each other is a good idea!!

Agree; that was one of the reasons I voted for the Common Market. And that is probably what it should have stayed at, instead of what feels increasingly like enforced political and economic union.

IMO, they should go back to the drawing board, or there is a great danger the EU is going to tear itself apart.

No, I don't think anyone is going to go to real war, but stand by for everyone exchanging insulting jokes about their neighbours, in the time-honoured fashion, instead of saving them for football.

[Sabot]

Everything here is still marked in Francs as well as Euros, although I have got past checking anymore.
But I did like The Franc. I don't know why.

[Lamplighter]

Everything here is still marked in Francs as well as Euros, although I have got past checking anymore.
But I did like The Franc. I don't know why.

Probably because it has a ring of history about it, like I prefer £sd to £p - it goes back to a more genteel time. I miss the schilling, I must admit. Lamplighter

[Sabot]

The Brits, as ever, always translate foreign currency into Sterling, LL. I did it with Dollars in Singapore, and with Francs in France. But I had just about stopped doing it with Francs when we had the change over. Now I have stopped doing it with The Euro I doubt I could face it again, especially as the value of a Franc will have changed.
The only really good thing was the retaining of Centimes instead of Cents as in other Euro Zone countries.

[bb1]

Give it time, you may well get francs, etc., back again...

[bb1]

[bb1]

Oh, in the name....

A £48bn windfall for Germans - but euro worries grow as Italian economy weakens

t is the government equivalent of finding a £10 note down the back of the sofa – a stroke of luck which Chancellor George Osborne would welcome.
The Germans are celebrating the discovery of a £48 billion ‘bonus’ lurking undetected in one of its bailed-out banks.
The money, which would be enough to build nearly 10,000 British primary schools, had been lost in the accounts of FMS Wertmanagement after officials were left so confused by a set of complex financial instruments governing its financial obligations that they overstated the bank’s debts.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055176/A-48bn-windfall-Germans--euro-worries-grow-Italian-economy-weakens.html#ixzz1cDTevFvJ

Who do you think you are kidding, Mrs Merkel?


(sorry, couldn't resist )

[Sabot]

Saw that in The Mail and nearly died laughing, and at your ditty, Bonny.

Jeesus. They must think we've just come up The Clyde on a Water Biscuit.

[bb1]

Well, if German officials are so 'confused' by money that they can 'lose' £48 billion, then they are clearly victims of some kind of financial dementia, and shouldn't be allowed to tell other people what to do.

Just how stupid do they think the rest of Europe is?

[bb1]

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16100341

Markets Plunge On Shock Greek Referendum Call

Quote:


Markets around the world have fallen following the news that Greece wants to stage a referendum on the bailout deal designed to rescue the eurozone.

So, what happens if Greece wants out of the eurozone?

[Lamplighter]

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16100341

Markets Plunge On Shock Greek Referendum Call

Quote:


Markets around the world have fallen following the news that Greece wants to stage a referendum on the bailout deal designed to rescue the eurozone.

So, what happens if Greece wants out of the eurozone?

I would not like to hazard a guess on that one, bonny. According to the rules, no country can leave the Euro. None has ever tried, so this is certainly a test case and one that could have extreme repercussions for the single currency. With the EU members who have not joined the Euro sitting on their hands and watching, it is going to be quite a bumpy ride. We have risen from 275 = £1 to 350 = £1 in less than 3 weeks. This is fast approaching the exchange rate as it was when I bought this house. Not too savvy on these matters, but I have been told that if Greece leaves it will have to devalue its currency to return to the drachma. And there will be problems with all kinds of things, contracts, investments etc. I am just happy we are not in the Eurozone, and that the UK isn't either. LL

[bb1]

Thing is....the world is not going to stop turning if the eurozone collapses and is consigned to the dustbin of history.

My own view is that it is going to happen, sooner or later - it's a failed experiment.

So, while it will cause chaos in the financial markets for a while, will it really be such a disaster, long-term? Will it not actually benefit countries currently struggling if they return to their own currency, valued at a sensible level, rather than being tied to, say, Germany?

I know what I mean, I probably haven't put that very well......

[Lamplighter]

Thing is....the world is not going to stop turning if the eurozone collapses and is consigned to the dustbin of history.

My own view is that it is going to happen, sooner or later - it's a failed experiment.

So, while it will cause chaos in the financial markets for a while, will it really be such a disaster, long-term? Will it not actually benefit countries currently struggling if they return to their own currency, valued at a sensible level, rather than being tied to, say, Germany?

I know what I mean, I probably haven't put that very well......

It was a good idea, bonny, but those that set it up did not take a forward look and try and factor in if something did go wrong. Also, they didn't allow for Greece blatantly falsifying their data to pass the entrance exam. No-one in the Eurozone is tied to any one country's currency, they are all in the same boat. It appears to most casual observers who maybe don't understand how it works that Germany and France are pulling the strings. As Germany is by far the most stable currency it is having to provide the most financial assistance, but this is no longer going down well in Germany; the people there are having ever-growing doubts about the Euro and long for the old days and the Deutschmark. As for France, well from what I have heard things there are beginning to take a downward turn. It's the fault of the countries concerned; they did not keep an eye on the cash flow, reign in some of the more foolhardy banks and balance the books. Remember 'You've never had it so good'? Well that's what has happened, it degenerated into spend, spend, spend, high living standards, big mortgages, flashy cars, numerous foreign holidays and now the fun is over and they are having to pay the piper. How will it end? I'm an OAP, not a soothsayer, but I do hope it doesn't end in tears before bedtime!! LL

[Lamplighter]

ALL HELL HAS BROKEN OUT - MARKETS PLUNGE!!


Greece to hold referendum on EU aid package
Prime Minister George Papandreou asks citizens to vote on whether country should adopt $140bn eurozone bailout deal.
Last Modified: 01 Nov 2011 09:19

The Greek government has said that it will hold a referendum on a new EU aid package, calling on voters to say whether they want to adopt it or not.

"We trust citizens, we believe in their judgement, we believe in their decision," George Papandreou, the prime minister, told ruling Socialist politicians on Monday.

"This is a supreme act of democracy and of patriotism for the people to make their own decision," he continued. "We have a duty to promote the role and the responsibility of the citizen."

The announcement has taken other European leaders by surprise, ahead of the G20 summit in Cannes, France, later this week.

In Germany, a member of Angela Merkel’s centre-right coalition said the news of the referendum gave the impression that Greece was trying to backtrack on its deal with EU leaders.

"I was irritated (by the news)," Rainer Bruederle, the parliamentary floor leader for the Free Democrats Party (FDP), told Deutschlandfunk radio. "This sounds to me like someone is trying to wriggle out of what was agreed -- a strange thing to do."

"The prime minister had (agreed) to a rescue package that benefited his country. Other countries are making considerable sacrifices for decades of mismanagement and poor leadership in Greece -- wrong decisions were made and the country manoeuvred itself into this crisis."

Joerg Rocholl, president of the European School of Management and Technology in Berlin, told ZDF television that Greece's retreat from the agreement could mean that other countries no longer feel obliged to take part in the rescue.

"That could mean that Greece can't remain in the euro," Rocholl said.

"The situation is so tight that basically it would be a vote over their euro membership," Alexander Stubb, the Finnish minister of European affairs and foreign trade, said in an interview with Finnish broadcaster MTV3.

"Greece has committed to a new programme which includes structural reforms. All of a sudden, if they vote against those reforms, then Greece is the one who violated the agreement," he said.

Markets respond

Asian stock markets on Tuesday fell on concerns over the eurozone rescue plan, with Japan's Nikkei 225 index dropping 1.2 per cent. Hong Kong's Hang Seng down 1.4 per cent and Australia's S&P/ASX 200 down 1.3 per cent.

European stock index futures pointed to a sharply lower open on Tuesday, adding to the previous session's losses.

The EU deal calls on private holders of Greek bonds to write off 50 per cent of the country's debt and provides the troubled eurozone member with 40bn euros in additional rescue loans.

Papandreou appeared to take many politicians by surprise with the announcement, and drew criticism from political opponents.

"Mr. Papandreou is dangerous, he tosses Greece's EU membership like a coin in the air," said main conservative opposition New Democracy party spokesman Yannis Michelakis.

"He cannot govern and instead of withdrawing honourably, he dynamites everything," he added.

He gave no date or other details of the proposed referendum but said that he would seek a vote of confidence in parliament.

Papandreou's government has seen its parliamentary majority reduced to just three seats and its approval ratings plummet amid harsh austerity measures that have fuelled national protests and are likely to send the country into a fourth year of recession in 2012.

'Make-or-break moment'

John Psaropoulos, a journalist in Athens, told Al Jazeera that Papandreou's government was seeking new ways to legitimise itself following months in which it had faced public scorn over austerity measures implemented to access international bailout payments.

"I think Papandreou has decided that this is his make-or-break moment and he doesn't want to stay in power any longer if he's going to be questioned," said Psaropoulos.

Nearly 60 per cent of Greeks view Thursday's EU summit agreement on a new euro bailout package as negative, or probably negative, a survey showed on Saturday.

Makis Voridis, a member of parliament for the far right LAOS party, said: "The prime minister is obviously stuck in a dead end and he is leading the country down a very dangerous slope."

Some parliamentarians even questioned the referendum's legality under the constitution, which does not allow referendums on economic issues but only matters of great national importance.

The last time Greeks held a referendum was in December 1974, when they voted to abolish the monarchy shortly after the collapse of a military dictatorship.

"It's debatable whether the constitution allows such a referendum," said Fotis Kouvelis, leader of the Democratic Left party. "The country must go to early elections. Given the situation, it's the most honourable solution."

"If the referendum answer is no, Papandreou has to resign," said Costas Panagopoulos, an analyst at polling firm Alco.

"In the meantime what will happen with the decisions the EU took last week? I cannot understand what the prime minister wants to do. It could be the only way he has to leave the government, to share responsibility."

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