EU referendum set for June 23rd

I appreciate your views, Jean-Pierre, and we all have our own opinions, but with all due respect, I don't think you understand how badly the people at the bottom have been affected by the EU.

How do you think ordinary, working class British people feel when they see their own neighbourhoods trashed by Eastern European migrants crowding into previously-decent houses and living ten to a room? When teenagers cannot even get entry-level jobs because there is always someone newly arrived who will work in worse conditions, for less money?

Do you actually not understand that ordinary people are attached to their own homes and families, and that this much-vaunted 'freedom of movement' is as irrelevant to them as going to the Moon? I doubt if there would be any 'Zero Hour Contracts' if there wasn't so much cheap labour, and so many people at the bottom fighting over scraps.


The EU is great for the rich - even the comfortably off, with second homes in Tuscany, a la Toynbee. As for the rest of us - it's a nasty social experiment, at our expense. I don't greatly like being hassled by Roma beggars when I come out of supermarkets, for example....

I voted for the Common Market, and I have nothing against Europe or Europeans - if Remain had presented a valid argument, then I was open to being persuaded to change my mind.

Instead, I have been utterly sickened by the sheer arrogance and contempt for ordinary people shown by so many in the Remain camp. Far, far too many of them behave like the nomenklatura of the old Soviet Union. The EU isn't going to reform itself - they've all got their noses in a very large, rich trough.

Whatever happens on Thursday, it's not going to settle down quietly. IMO, too large a gulf between sections of British society has been opened up.

J-P, you have just stated your viewpoint in the most sweet and eloquent manner.  

There is a horrible youth unemployment problem here too.  Primarily courtesy of illegal immigration and the mass distribution of visas for tech workers.  America does not need tech workers from other countries, there are enough kids to do it here.   The drug trade and ensuing crime is overwhelming our states and very little is done about it.  I could go on and on but will not.

It's true that manufacturers want to produce their products for the least amount of money.  It used to be that they would simply go to a different state where there were no unions so they could pay less money.  Then they discovered where they could pay even less money by going overseas.

With every move, that meant those previously employed became unemployed with all the ensuing upset to the families.

It also seemed to motivate many of those firms by sheer greed.  Look at the power of Wall Street etc.... (That is an interesting subject by itself).  People who invest want to get the biggest bang for their buck and who can blame them?   Sooner or later it can get out of control when any sense of compassion for those who are deeply distressed by their uncaring deeds are left out in the cold.  They need more, more, more.   

I will cut it short here.  

P.S.  People like Soros are so happy about what they have achieved so far.  I imagine he does not believe in any type of accounting after death.

HM has been purring again:

Queen said to have been asking dinner guests for 'three good reasons' why Britain should be in the EU
Author Robert Lacey claims monarch posed the question at private functions
But Buckingham Palace insists the Queen is 'above politics'
Spokesman says EU referendum is for 'British people to decide'
Lacey stresses Queen is 'very careful not to betray personal opinions'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3652793/Queen-said-asking-dinner-guests-three-good-reasons-Britain-EU.html#ixzz4CFgwn2Rz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I suggest bringing back duels, instead of this seemingly never-ending uproar and political squabbling. Who wouldn't pay to see Dave and Boris with pistols at dawn?

All over quickly, and no shouting matches, lying on telly, nothing.

bb1 wrote:I appreciate your views, Jean-Pierre, and we all have our own opinions, but with all due respect, I don't think you understand how badly the people at the bottom have been affected by the EU.

How do you think ordinary, working class British people feel when they see their own neighbourhoods trashed by Eastern European migrants crowding into previously-decent houses and living ten to a room? When teenagers cannot even get entry-level jobs because there is always someone newly arrived who will work in worse conditions, for less money?

Do you actually not understand that ordinary people are attached to their own homes and families, and that this much-vaunted 'freedom of movement' is as irrelevant to them as going to the Moon? I doubt if there would be any 'Zero Hour Contracts' if there wasn't so much cheap labour, and so many people at the bottom fighting over scraps.


The EU is great for the rich - even the comfortably off, with second homes in Tuscany, a la Toynbee. As for the rest of us - it's a nasty social experiment, at our expense. I don't greatly like being hassled by Roma beggars when I come out of supermarkets, for example....

I voted for the Common Market, and I have nothing against Europe or Europeans - if Remain had presented a valid argument, then I was open to being persuaded to change my mind.

Instead, I have been utterly sickened by the sheer arrogance and contempt for ordinary people shown by so many in the Remain camp.  Far, far too many of them behave like the nomenklatura of the old Soviet Union. The EU isn't going to reform itself - they've all got their noses in a very large, rich trough.

Whatever happens on Thursday, it's not going to settle down quietly. IMO, too large a gulf between sections of British society has been opened up.

I hear what you say Bonny.  But I think your anger may be directed at the wrong people and your proposed solution may end up making things worse.

I do know something about this.  I run or am closely involved in businesses in Glasgow, Liverpool, london, Marseilles, Berlin and Barcelona.  And they are all people businesses. I realise that this puts me in the enemy camp but I do genuinely try to run things properly.  Politically I'm on the provisional wing of the liberal party.

So I have some knowledge of employment law.  And unions etc.  

With the loss of effective unions, EU law has introduced a huge raft of protection for workers.  Working hours, pay, rights, security and social benefits. Much of the regulation and compliance is about workers rights.  It is the uk government - Blair, brown and Cameron, who have worked strenuously to reduce these rights to the absolute minimum.  

Contrasting an employee in France and the U.K. Is instructive.  In France social cost is around 70% of pay, in the its 30% odd.  In the uk a worker can be on zero hours contract, or agency, or short term contracts.  These do not exist in France or Spain or generally not in Germany.  Sacking a worker in continental Europe is virtually impossible.

If we vote for brexit, the workers will lose any protection the do have from the EU -  so watch this space for more immigrant workers, more zero hours contracts, loopholes in minimum wage.  And if we stay in the EEA then free movement of people will still apply.  

I believe that a vote for brexit will be out of a fairly tepid frying pan and into a very hot fire for those at the middle and bottom.   The hidden agenda for some ( not all) brexiteers is to get the uk out of Europe and ditch the protection offered by the EU.

There are of course other issues, but this is one of the key ones.

Oh, there's no enemies here, Jean-Pierre, but there is an almighty mess, and things should never have come to this.

I have noticed that the ongoing riots in France have been pretty much ignored in the UK:

http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2016/06/monthslong-protests-and-strikes-in-france-over-labor-law-changes/487196/

Monthslong Protests and Strikes in France Over Labor Law Changes

Apart from the odd spectacular story:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/671588/France-protests-riots-police-car-set-on-fire-Paris-loi-travail-employment-reforms

FRANCE CHAOS: Police car set on fire with officers INSIDE by angry mob in Paris

There is rising anger all over Europe, and monsters from the past have woken up again. I personally don't think those at the top of the eurocrat tree are ever going to wake up; IMO it's going to go the same way as the Soviet Union - sadly, more violently than that pretty peaceful toppling of a system that was no longer fit for purpose.

Like I said, there's no enemies here, just different ways of seeing something - and seeing the ongoing fallout from the Scottish referendum I don't see a good way for this to end. I try to be a realist; YES lost that, and in view of events since then, it's probably just as well, especially with the collapse of oil prices. But the fights over that are still ongoing, and are causing real damage, with Ms Sturgeon spending more time on trying to keep the faithful happy than actually running the country.

I can see the same thing happening in the UK, even if Remain win narrowly. It isn't good, and instability isn't beneficial to anyone. And those at the top of the heap in the EU should never, ever have got so arrogant and insulated that it came to this.

So, weeks of shouting for nothing, then?



I haven't seen a single poster, for either side.

And Gove seizes the Godwin's Law award from Livingston.

Oh. My. God.

You've just gone down the rabbit hole.....

I think the whole country's fallen down a rabbit hole, Lily.

I didn't watch the BBC debate (I decided a repeat of Midsommer Murders might be more entertaining) but something went wrong with the BBC's handpicked audience:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/745358333175959554

BBC News (UK)Verified account
‏@BBCNews
Thursday can be "our country's independence day", Boris Johnson tells #BBCDebate http://bbc.in/264XBZu #EUref

[video]

Boris did an Inspirational Speech and got a standing ovation.

He certainly did.  Even my parrot was making applause sounds.  

Lord Sugar ‏@Lord_Sugar 4h4 hours ago
Lord Sugar Retweeted Act4Health
She immigrated to UK from Germany in 1974. 30 mins ago was advocating that we stop immigration from the EU

Can you imagine the uproar if Farage said something like that and substituted, say, Pakistan, for Germany?

Morning brings:



The Mail finally makes its mind up - either that, or it's seen genuine opinion polls and wants to be seen to be on the winning side.



I sincerely hope there are no more dodgy stunts involving 'postal votes' from households with twenty or thirty occupants, none of whom can be bothered walking to a polling station.

Mail in Scotland:



Ms Sturgeon has got herself into the most appalling tangle over this, as word has gone out to Party Faithful to vote Remain. Not because it's good for Scotland, heavens no! But because she wants to cause as big a constitutional mess as possible.

She carried on like this before the Holyrood elections, too, which had the truly bizarre effect of reviving the Tories in Scotland.....if anyone wants to see Duelling Wifies, they should check out Ms Sturgeon and Ms Davidson yelling at each other during FM's question time.

That may well be the winner....

This explains the duplicity of the SNP position fairly simply:

https://vimeo.com/171632386

[video]

Project Deception

I will suffer many things from politicians, but blatant dishonesty isn't one of them.

bb1 wrote:Morning brings:



The Mail finally makes its mind up - either that, or it's seen genuine opinion polls and wants to be seen to be on the winning side.



I sincerely hope there are no more dodgy stunts involving 'postal votes' from households with twenty or thirty occupants, none of whom can be bothered walking to a polling station.

Come on Bonny - where has that cynicism we all know and love gone?

The mail - brexit.
Mail on Sunday - remain

Times - remain
Sunday times - brexit.

Boris has a history of being very pro EU. And until a few weeks ago was apparently 'veering all over the place like a shopping trolley'.

Suddenly he has seen the light and is 110% committed to leaving the EU.

And Gove?

In some ways Farage is the only really honest one of the three, and I can respect that.

This is odd:


Jamie Ross ‏@JamieRoss7 16h16 hours ago
Over 100,000 people in Scotland have dropped off the electoral register since the general election. #ReferendumFever



I believe our electoral roll is down some 300,000 since our referendum less than two years ago, which doesn't suggest a nation eagerly engaging with politics.

Come on Bonny - where has that cynicism we all know and love gone?

Still present and in full working order, Jean-Pierre!

Thing is, if the daily edition of a paper takes a different stance from the Sunday edition, then whatever happens, the publishers are on the winning side.....

No, I don't actually mind Farage. He's a bit spivvy, but he's stuck to his guns all this time.

Humza Yousaf ‏@HumzaYousaf 24h24 hours ago
YouGov poll puts Leave ahead across UK but Scottish sample shows Remain ahead 67% Vs 33% Leave - Scotland can make the difference #EUref

Oh, FFS, the Scotland vote is INCLUDED in the UK total. He's the idiot that predicted the SNP would take every single constituency seat in last months Holyrood elections.

Meanwhile, in the real world - they lost constituency seats to the Tories and LibDems. If he seriously thinks 67% of Scots want to stay in the EU, he may well be in for another rude awakening.

Sparsely populated areas that benefit from EU subsidies (if Holyrood ever remembers to process the payments) are NOT going to out-vote heavily populated urban areas.

Excuse me while I shout at Ms Sturgeon, who is doing a photo-op at Edinburgh Airport:

Oh, FFS, you stupid woman! 'Hopping on a plane and going to Europe' has NOTHING to do with the EU. I, like millions of others, was managing to do it quite nicely long before the EU was conjured up. From Edinburgh. Neither was air travel invented in 1993 with the birth of the EU.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/turkey-flabbergasted-cameron-hes-biggest-supporter/


Chief adviser to the Turkish government Ilnur Chevik was on Newsnight last night, where he expressed surprise that Cameron is now claiming Turkey won’t join the EU:

“We are really, really flabbergasted, let’s put it that way. We thought Mr Cameron was our chief supporter for our quest for European Union membership. Turks thought that the British were the driving force behind our EU membership and that they were supporting us right to the hilt.”

Dave lied??? Who'da thunk?

http://news.sky.com/story/1715771/pm-gove-has-lost-it-over-nazi-comparisons

Mr Gove, the Justice Secretary in Mr Cameron's Cabinet, had claimed experts cannot always be trusted, and pointed to the German scientists used to denounce Einstein.

He told radio station LBC: "We have to be careful about historical comparisons, but Albert Einstein during the 1930s was denounced by the German authorities for being wrong and his theories were denounced, and one of the reasons of course he was denounced was because he was Jewish.

Gove is absolutely correct - that is one of the reasons the Nazis thankfully didn't manage to make an atom bomb. So, why is Cameron shrieking and clutching his pearls?

Oh wait, I know - Remain thought they had copyright on calling people nazis, thickos, racists, etc.